ONLY AT THE MICHIGAN STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

[Jrat47]

Only ant the Michigan state championship can you lose with an score of 190pts!
There were multiple Qualifying matches that push 180pts and above. The average losing score was around 150 pts! That is insane! The field was so deep that the 85% teams that didn't make it into the eliminations were strong enough to go to any other regional and not only make it to eliminations but win! The level game play is off the charts. I am not counting on Nationals being this competitive until maybe Einstein.

Also I love IRI the Indiana Robotics Invitational. They have some of the best teams from around the county every year and its always amazing but if they want to compete with what I just saw at MSC then they have a very very tall order to fill.


Who out there thinks that Nationals will be as good as the MSC?

[Joe G.]

MSC likely has more competitive qualifying matches on average. I think championship eliminations can be expected to be more intense, especially towards Einstein.

IRI trumps all.

[Pault]

I don't think this is really even a question, IRI will be way more competitive without any doubt. We will probably see very few scores under 175.

The question would be better if you left IRI out of the mix and just asked MSC vs. Championships. I personally think that we will be seeing a more competitive championships, but it is definitely arguable that MSC is better.

[xSAWxBLADEx]

I see this year 30%+ of MSC are going to be at IRI.

[NotaJoke]

Originally Posted by Pault

I don't think this is really even a question, IRI will be way more competitive without any doubt. We will probably see very few scores under 175.

The question would be better if you left IRI out of the mix and just asked MSC vs. Championships. I personally think that we will be seeing a more competitive championships, but it is definitely arguable that MSC is better.

I think the difference between the two events (MSC and IRI) comes from the fact that IRI is an off season event. Due to this fact, many teams don't bring their A game, and an 'all star' tournament is never truly realized. An example of the repercussions of an off season tournament are the newly introduced/inexperienced drive teams (eg 67 who uses the event to train new drivers after the previous team graduates) and many other teams who are missing essential mentors or students to vacations or other summer projects. Finally distance and price tag cause some teams to decline invitation.

For other reasons, MSC can not be the most competitive as it is limited to Michigan teams only. Michigan might be the most competitive area for FRC, and MSC the most intense competition of the area, it is not the best representation because of the limited geographic influence.

CMP can be disappointing from time to time, and may not be the most exciting during quals, but I think it is the best representation because of its prestige and the distance teams will travel to play. If there could be more qual matches, or smaller divisions it would be even better.

Overall, the three events have their own merits and fall backs. Perhaps in combination, one day it will be possible to derive the best robot from their performances at all three (regional cmp, cmp, and iri).

[Adam Freeman]

The nature of this game really lead to an increase in performance for almost every team in FIRST. Pretty much >50% of teams at any regional/district event have some ability to score a modest level of frisbees.

So when you combine a game like this with a qualification style event like MSC, it's just a recipe for incredible performance in the qualification matches. Then add in another level of sorting, by picking the best 24 teams at an event the eliminations performance just increases even more exponentially.

But, the same thing has been happening every year since we started this FiM district system. MSC tops you typical district/regional event, but gets trumped by the eliminations @ Champs, and IRI eliminations tops them all.

The level of performance needed to win a Division or even better Einstein is outrageous, from performance to reliability, it just takes some really well built machines combined with outstanding performance and strategy. By the time we get to that level, the amount of pressure to succeed is sometimes overwelming. Topping even MSC.

I would predict that the Champs elims will be even better than what we just saw this weekend. Take MSC and add in all the rest of the teams from outside of Michigan...it HAS to be!

Then, take only the "best of the best" teams from all over (MSC, Champs, Silver medalists that didn't get into champs, etc..) and bring them to a small gym in the middle of Indiana and things get even crazier. Yes, some teams try out new drivers and are maybe not always operating at full strength. But, there are also those teams that maybe experienced some bad luck at Champs or lost on a questionable call that are looking for redemption.

MSC elims < Divisions elims < Einstein < IRI for level of competitiveness.

I can't wait to get back out there!

[Paul Copioli]

Wow, I actually do disagree with Adam every once in a while. From my experience in the divisions and at MSC eliminations, I believe the MSC eliminations are always tougher than the Championship division elimination rounds.

My examples are '09 and '11 since I wasn't at MSC in 2010 and for 2012, well let's just leave that one alone. In both '09 and '11, our elimination rounds were much less tough that the MSC elims those two years.

Einstein, however, is a completely different story.

IRI ... no contest. It is borderline insane.

[efoote868]

Originally Posted by Jrat47

The average losing score was around 150 pts! That is insane!

That would be insane! if it were true.

Average losing score during qualifications is 111.2, average losing score during elimination is 144.3.

Maybe you meant winning score? Average winning score during qualifications was 153, 181 during elimination.

[Adam Freeman]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Wow, I actually do disagree with Adam every once in a while. From my experience in the divisions and at MSC eliminations, I believe the MSC eliminations are always tougher than the Championship division elimination rounds.

That's OK, I think we can still be friends...

In this case, I hope your right because I'd like to have a much easier time this year at Champs, than we did at MSC this weekend.

Thinking back, it's probably 50/50.

- 2009, I think MSC was a bit more competitive than the Division champs. But we also had 111 at Champs, who was IMO the best robot at Champs.

- 2010, we had to face 469 @ MSC...so that would say MSC was tougher. But, I think outside of 469, the teams in the division eliminations were a little stronger.

- 2011, no question we had a harder time fighting the likes of 2056, 71, 2826, 987, and all the super fast minibots that showed up at Champs than we did at MSC.

- 2012, we also much harder time in St. Louis, when we had to go up against 1114, 2056, and 4334 in our division eliminations.

I would suspect that typically the elimination round scores on average continue to increase, even from MSC to Division.

I'm sure Jim Zondag would have data to prove this arguement one way or the other.

[Richard Wallace]

Ok, I probably don't even rate an opinion in this discussion -- seeing that Adam and Paul have already weighed in. So, before Jim brings that data to the party, I will sneak in my humble observation:

I was at MSC, and six other district/regional events last year. And I volunteered at the Championship, resetting the Archimedes field. I saw a lot of matches. From what I saw, MSC quarterfinals are the most competitive of any event except IRI. But, beginning in the semis and most especially in the finals, Championship divisions have the edge over MSC.

IRI still beats every other event for raw competition. This year I expect to see discs overflowing from the center goal, three robots at the top of the pyramid, skid marks and smoke from fullback robots -- in Paul's words, borderline insanity. Maybe a little over that line.

[XaulZan11]

I think the Championship probably has the better top 24 robots, but the nature of the competition can lead to watered down elimination matches. With such a large field and thus so few qualification matches, the chances of a below average robot seeding in the top 8 is pretty good. Additionally, I suspect the average team only really knows a handful of the 100 teams in their division coming into the event, making scouting and learning all 100 teams a huge challenge (there always seems to be some very odd picks at the CMP). MSC has 12 qualification matches and the average team already knows the majority of the teams coming into the event, making the 24 teams in the elminations very close to the best 24 robots.

[AndyW]

There were quite a lot of matches where the score difference was less than 5 points, especially on Saturday afternoon.

[Alexa Stott]

There's no option for the Championship. ;P

Originally Posted by xSAWxBLADEx

I see this year 30%+ of MSC are going to be at IRI.

Uh...

[Koko Ed]

MSC was amazing and I expect IRI to be equally amazing.

[IKE]

I tend to agree with Richard on this. The difference as shown in the math is depth vs highest scorer. The worlds highest scorers are at Worlds, so the highest highs are higher but the distribution is shallower. MSC tends to have better depth through midrange which leads to asastronger second round pick which has better quarters. Also MSC qualifying can be rough as the event has better parity amongst teams which can lead to more losses yet still making rank.