Defense in Ultimate Ascent

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by karomata

The one robot design that is defense based that I believe would have a great impact would be a fan robot. This is basically a robot with a gigantic fan on top of it, that would blow vertically and blow all the discs off their paths. It would be the ultimate defense robot because it could defend any sort of shooting from any area on the field. It could just station itself beneath the opposing alliances goals, and prevent the alliance from scoring at all. This robot would probably not have a whole lot of luck getting a high ranking because it's design is not conducive to getting a whole lot of auto points or winning all of its matches, but it would definantly be picked. It would probably be picked as a 1st pick by the top seed, with the assumption that their robot was effective in matches, and they would be the first team picked not only because they can basically shut down most of an alliance by themselves, but also because none of the top seeds could risk going against them in elims.

There was a fan rookie robot at GTR-West (4716 who qualified for the championships as a GTR-West finalist due to the Wildcard). Karthik refereed to them as a Peacock due to the tail fan the robot had. They can only play defense but against the 1114/2056 juggernaut they were not fast enough to keep up (1114 would elude them by darting under the pyramid which they were too tall to get under)and because they did not score any discs in autonomous it put their alliance at a tremendous disadvantage.

[GeorgeM]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

There was a fan rookie robot at GTR-West (4716 who qualified for the championships as a GTR-West finalist due to the Wildcard). Karthik refereed to them as a Peacock due to the tail fan the robot had. They can only play defense but against the 1114/2056 juggernaut they were not fast enough to keep up (1114 would elude them by darting under the pyramid which they were too tall to get under)and because they did not score any discs in autonomous it put their alliance at a tremendous disadvantage.

They were a great defensive robot! I'd go as far to say that they were the integral part to making it to the finals. They played lights-out D on Lo-ellen in Quarters and shut-down Theory6 in Semi's.

They would have been good enough to stop 2056/4814/1114, except they made a few mistakes that 1114 capitalized on. Instead of staying closer to the center of the field, they attempted to defend Sims in between the loading station and the pyramid. Since their "Peacock" could not get under the pyramid, 1114 took that opportunity to evade them. I think if they would have stayed closer to the center, their defense on 1114 would have been magnified.

...A great defensive robot!

[Nemo]

How tough is it to play defense on a climb and dump robot?

After poking around in the rules and the Q&A for a while, here's what I've gathered:

Letting the climber push you into their pyramid is bad; probably gives you a technical and gives them a free 30 point climb.

It is possible to legally play 2 on 1 defense against a single robot.

It is legal to block one of the feeder stations, but not both at the same time. It is not a penalty to touch the opposing feeder station as long as you're not also touching an opposing robot that is in the feeder station.

Those indicate to me that climb + dump robots should be defended on their way to the feeder station and back. But after they reach their own auto zone again, it gets really risky to try to defend them unless you think their drive is too weak to push you around.

[Chris is me]

Defensive strategies will be a factor but the days of picking a robot to just play defense and hang for 10 are long gone. There are too many ways to score points, too many robots that can do it, and too many alliances that will need to be taken down with sheer firepower.

I don't expect any "pure" FCSes on Einstein (robots that can't cycle / hang past 10 / do something else well without tipping).

[Ben Martin]

As a FCS team attending the championship, we are hopeful that we could be seen as a great late 2nd round pick for two other strong teams, forcing another robot to be taken out of play to sit in front of us. This could make the game effectively 2 vs 2 except for autonomous and the endgame. In this way, the robot could be a "defender" in that we would prevent another robot from taking action during the teleoperated period.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Defensive strategies will be a factor but the days of picking a robot to just play defense and hang for 10 are long gone. There are too many ways to score points, too many robots that can do it, and too many alliances that will need to be taken down with sheer firepower.

I don't expect any "pure" FCSes on Einstein (robots that can't cycle / hang past 10 / do something else well without tipping).

I don't think this is necessarily true... Even if you put up a perfect defense against a FCS, it is still going to score at least as many points as the defender. More likely, it will score at least a couple of Frisbees, meaning that its alliance partners (who are effectively playing a 2 on 2 game) will have an advantage. The key will be for the FCS to no mindlessly shoot into a pool noodle. Rather, it must move around a little and find open shots; the worst thing it can do it drain its allies disks by needlessly firing away - and taking them away from undefended cyclers.

I am not saying that there *will* be a pure FCS on Einstein, only that it is a real possibility.

[DjScribbles]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I don't think this is necessarily true... Even if you put up a perfect defense against a FCS, it is still going to score at least as many points as the defender. More likely, it will score at least a couple of Frisbees, meaning that its alliance partners (who are effectively playing a 2 on 2 game) will have an advantage. The key will be for the FCS to no mindlessly shoot into a pool noodle. Rather, it must move around a little and find open shots; the worst thing it can do it drain its allies disks by needlessly firing away - and taking them away from undefended cyclers.

I am not saying that there *will* be a pure FCS on Einstein, only that it is a real possibility.

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

Remember: Both alliances will likely have robots with a 7 disk autonomous routines. Overall, in elimination, scores should be reasonably close after the 15 second autonomous period. It then becomes a contest to see which team of three can score more points. If you spend the entire 2 minute blocking us, you will score zero teleop points. We will likely score 3-5 disks (down from about 40). Therefore, in teleop, our team would outscore yours. Yes, our protected feeder would be plugged up if we just stood there. However, the unprotected one would not be. Unless you are going to remove yet another robot from offense, our partners could use the unprotected feeder unhindered, so the loss of the protected one would be inconsequential.

[Bstep]

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

I would disagree that they would beat out any cycling robots. No full court shooter has proven to be more accurate than good cycling bots so far. If neither team had a ground pickup I would put my money on 3 cycling bots over 3 FCS any day. 3 cyclers easily get through all of the disks in 2 minutes. Even 2 good cyclers can get through all of the disks. And I bet they would make more 3 pointers than the FCSers would.

[Bstep]

I think 67 has the accuracy to beat out the best cycle bots and once 948 gets set up, they can most certainly do it. I would also say that 2471 and 195 (both named their robots "oddjob" ) have the potential to outscore cycle bots.

Keep in mind that I'm only speaking of what can occur if these machines go unchecked. If being defended, I completely agree with pntbll1313's statement that a cycle bot can make more shots in a match.

Which good cyclers can get through all the discs? During elims, with defense being played, most cycle bots can make 4 trips. If two of them do that, that's 32 discs. If not defended, the fastest cycle bots can make 5 trips. In that case, you're right because they can run through 40 discs. Has this happened?

[pntbll1313]

I'm pretty sure they were running out of discs at MSC even with no full court shooters. I didn't see all of the matches so someone else would have to confirm. There are teams that hit 5 cycles with little or no defense and I would guess a few hit 6. In a match with little defense played on us we were able to make 5 trips and hit 19/20 in the 3 pointer. I haven't seen any FCSs that go over 90% yet.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

If you have 3 FCS like 987, 1310, and 469 who all also have floor pickup, that will be a sight to see. Granted it will never happen in elims, but it could be very interestkng in quals. I can see all 51 disks scored.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

That sounds like a decent strategy and would result in a net gain for your alliance. The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar. I haven’t seen one that can then extend up to 84” and effectively block a tall full court shooter. If you are one of those teams and decide to go that route I would suggest you reconsider. I think your floor pickup (which you must have for the 7 disk) would be wasted sitting parked on the opposite end of the field.

[markmcgary]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar.

Is this true? Please explain.