Defense in Ultimate Ascent

[Ben Martin]

As a FCS team attending the championship, we are hopeful that we could be seen as a great late 2nd round pick for two other strong teams, forcing another robot to be taken out of play to sit in front of us. This could make the game effectively 2 vs 2 except for autonomous and the endgame. In this way, the robot could be a "defender" in that we would prevent another robot from taking action during the teleoperated period.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Defensive strategies will be a factor but the days of picking a robot to just play defense and hang for 10 are long gone. There are too many ways to score points, too many robots that can do it, and too many alliances that will need to be taken down with sheer firepower.

I don't expect any "pure" FCSes on Einstein (robots that can't cycle / hang past 10 / do something else well without tipping).

I don't think this is necessarily true... Even if you put up a perfect defense against a FCS, it is still going to score at least as many points as the defender. More likely, it will score at least a couple of Frisbees, meaning that its alliance partners (who are effectively playing a 2 on 2 game) will have an advantage. The key will be for the FCS to no mindlessly shoot into a pool noodle. Rather, it must move around a little and find open shots; the worst thing it can do it drain its allies disks by needlessly firing away - and taking them away from undefended cyclers.

I am not saying that there *will* be a pure FCS on Einstein, only that it is a real possibility.

[DjScribbles]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

I don't think this is necessarily true... Even if you put up a perfect defense against a FCS, it is still going to score at least as many points as the defender. More likely, it will score at least a couple of Frisbees, meaning that its alliance partners (who are effectively playing a 2 on 2 game) will have an advantage. The key will be for the FCS to no mindlessly shoot into a pool noodle. Rather, it must move around a little and find open shots; the worst thing it can do it drain its allies disks by needlessly firing away - and taking them away from undefended cyclers.

I am not saying that there *will* be a pure FCS on Einstein, only that it is a real possibility.

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

Remember: Both alliances will likely have robots with a 7 disk autonomous routines. Overall, in elimination, scores should be reasonably close after the 15 second autonomous period. It then becomes a contest to see which team of three can score more points. If you spend the entire 2 minute blocking us, you will score zero teleop points. We will likely score 3-5 disks (down from about 40). Therefore, in teleop, our team would outscore yours. Yes, our protected feeder would be plugged up if we just stood there. However, the unprotected one would not be. Unless you are going to remove yet another robot from offense, our partners could use the unprotected feeder unhindered, so the loss of the protected one would be inconsequential.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by DjScribbles

After putting up 7 discs in autonomous, our team will gladly sit in front of your FCS, blocking your shots and your protected feeder station for the cyclers.

This strategy leaves the field relatively uncongested for the alliance defending the FCS, and pretty blocked up for the FCS alliance; even though it removes a bot from scoring, it is still inhibits the FCS alliance beyond just blocking full-court shots.

That sounds like a decent strategy and would result in a net gain for your alliance. The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar. I haven’t seen one that can then extend up to 84” and effectively block a tall full court shooter. If you are one of those teams and decide to go that route I would suggest you reconsider. I think your floor pickup (which you must have for the 7 disk) would be wasted sitting parked on the opposite end of the field.

[Bstep]

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

[pntbll1313]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

I would disagree that they would beat out any cycling robots. No full court shooter has proven to be more accurate than good cycling bots so far. If neither team had a ground pickup I would put my money on 3 cycling bots over 3 FCS any day. 3 cyclers easily get through all of the disks in 2 minutes. Even 2 good cyclers can get through all of the disks. And I bet they would make more 3 pointers than the FCSers would.

[Lil' Lavery]

Why are we only focusing on defending FCS? It's really easy to defend most cycling robots as well.

Originally Posted by CENTURION

This is another interesting thing about Ultimate Ascent.

In most games, something like a FCS would be unstoppable force. Imagine a robot in Rebound Rumble that could sink three-pointers from that feeding slot, it would be king of the field.

Remember that human players acquired the balls when the other alliance scored. A full court shooter would not have been particularly game breaking in 2012.

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

That sounds like a decent strategy and would result in a net gain for your alliance. The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar. I haven’t seen one that can then extend up to 84” and effectively block a tall full court shooter. If you are one of those teams and decide to go that route I would suggest you reconsider. I think your floor pickup (which you must have for the 7 disk) would be wasted sitting parked on the opposite end of the field.

In order to block a FCS, they're on their offensive side of the field. If the FCS leaves to run cycles/hang, 2474 could use their ground pickup to scoop up any blocked shots.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Has anyone thought of what would happen if three FCSs made it on to one alliance? Many FCSs have an arced shot and could still score points around the pyramid from the inside feeder station. It would then take the entire opposing alliance to defend on them all. If any of them are free to shoot, then they could certainly beat out any cycle bots not defending them.

Although it probably won't occur, it would be very cool to see three FCSs on one alliance unopposed. It would be a sight to behold if there were that many Frisbees flying cross court. There would be none left within the first 20 seconds or less.

If you have 3 FCS like 987, 1310, and 469 who all also have floor pickup, that will be a sight to see. Granted it will never happen in elims, but it could be very interestkng in quals. I can see all 51 disks scored.

[Justin Shelley]

This year our robot was planned to be a three point shooter and a thirty point climber. Then tragedy struck and our climber and feeder broke during the first qualification match. So by destiny we became a defense robot, and it was amazing. We could go underneath the pyramid and since we had a 6wd pneumatic drivetrain we were near impossible to push. We shut down Raven Robotics and they were the #1 shooter there, also a pyramid shooter. We also shut down 1706 which was a fcs, and their shooter shattered lexan at 80%. The only team we didn't shut down that we attempted to was 3284 and that was because they had a two speed high traction 4 cim drivetrain, though we made it were they only did two trips from feeder station to pyramid. We never scored one point in teleop yet we were the second pick of the regional.

So i would have to say that defense is extremely important in UA and that a good defensive robot can win or lose a match for an alliance.

FCS blocking is a must for any alliance, without a FCS blocker you should kiss your chances of winning goodbye.

Pyramid shooting blocking is extremely plausible and easy. We just would wait until a robot got by their feeder station and then we kept them on that side of the field by going back and forth under the pyramid.

We also sat in front of a FCS on our alliance that way the opposition blocker couldn't block our FCS shots. Very effective!

[Bstep]

I think 67 has the accuracy to beat out the best cycle bots and once 948 gets set up, they can most certainly do it. I would also say that 2471 and 195 (both named their robots "oddjob" ) have the potential to outscore cycle bots.

Keep in mind that I'm only speaking of what can occur if these machines go unchecked. If being defended, I completely agree with pntbll1313's statement that a cycle bot can make more shots in a match.

Which good cyclers can get through all the discs? During elims, with defense being played, most cycle bots can make 4 trips. If two of them do that, that's 32 discs. If not defended, the fastest cycle bots can make 5 trips. In that case, you're right because they can run through 40 discs. Has this happened?

[pntbll1313]

I'm pretty sure they were running out of discs at MSC even with no full court shooters. I didn't see all of the matches so someone else would have to confirm. There are teams that hit 5 cycles with little or no defense and I would guess a few hit 6. In a match with little defense played on us we were able to make 5 trips and hit 19/20 in the 3 pointer. I haven't seen any FCSs that go over 90% yet.

[markmcgary]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

The problem is that all of the teams with a 7 disk auto must fit under the 30” pyramid bar.

Is this true? Please explain.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by markmcgary

Is this true? Please explain.

The middle discs are under the bar, and the frontmost discs are past a pair of bars. Can't shoot seven discs without being able to go under in some capacity. Doesn't mean you can't get bigger later.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by markmcgary

Is this true? Please explain.

Incorrect, You can do a 7-disc using the centerline frisbees. You don't have to go under the pyramid.