Defense in Ultimate Ascent

[pntbll1313]

I highly doubt there will be more than 2 disks on the center line once the elims start.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

Incorrect, You can do a 7-disc using the centerline frisbees. You don't have to go under the pyramid.

Under the assumption that the opposing alliance is leaving 2 extra discs on the center line? If you've got 2 alliance partners shooting solely from the front on the pyramid, it's likely you have other difficulties. Unless you mean the 2 center line discs and the 2 front ones? That's a heck of a drive, but would be really impressive!

[DjScribbles]

Originally Posted by Siri

Unless you mean the 2 center line discs and the 2 front ones? That's a heck of a drive, but would be really impressive!

That has never occurred to me, that surely would be a sight to see!

[Hobo]

It seems like it'll be rare, especially in the championship elims, that either alliance will have bots that don't start with 3 disks in autonomous.

On another note, FCS blocking will become extraordinarily tricky. At Chesapeake, our alliance employed a net capable of blocking 329's shots, but a tenacious counter-defense actually pushed our blocker into the protected feeder; we received a technical for that, and that cost us the first final.
From there, I think our blocker was just too scared of the same thing happening that they weren't willing to get close enough to block.

If a blocker can be implicated in a technical for being close enough to push into the feeder zone, what kind of blocker can pull off successful FCS defense?

[2789_B_Garcia]

Originally Posted by Hobo

FCS blocking will become extraordinarily tricky. At Chesapeake, our alliance employed a net capable of blocking 329's shots, but a tenacious counter-defense actually pushed our blocker into the protected feeder; we received a technical for that, and that cost us the first final.
From there, I think our blocker was just too scared of the same thing happening that they weren't willing to get close enough to block.

If a blocker can be implicated in a technical for being close enough to push into the feeder zone, what kind of blocker can pull off successful FCS defense?

Did you ask the ref about whether or not rule 18-1 applied?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Bstep

Which good cyclers can get through all the discs? During elims, with defense being played, most cycle bots can make 4 trips. If two of them do that, that's 32 discs. If not defended, the fastest cycle bots can make 5 trips. In that case, you're right because they can run through 40 discs. Has this happened?

469 has done 7 cycles in a match. There are several others who have done 6.

[Hobo]

But how many can a cycle bot do with strong defense? I've seen bots literally get shut down for 45 seconds on a single cycle because of defensive bots single-handedly blockading them on one side of the field. The higher into the championship alliances go, the more experienced and elite defensive teams will crop up; bots that have strong drivetrains and moderate-level scoring could convert as well.

[Hobo]

Originally Posted by 2789_B_Garcia

Did you ask the ref about whether or not rule 18-1 applied?

Yes; he said that the intention was to change the gamestate (blocking), not cause a foul, so it didn't fall under G18. Also, G30 (the rule about touching bots in the protected station or the pyramid), doesn't include a clause about who pushed who, just if it happened. Our alliance didn't argue with the decision.

My primary question is: will G30 take precedence over G18 at the championship as well? If so, what kind of defense can people imagine for FCS?

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Taylor

FCS can be shut down with height - but so can runner robots! Most of them shoot through the pyramid, with the disc coming out just below the second rung. A well-placed 60" robot can at least deflect those shots easily.

I beg to differ on this one.
This has happened to us many times this past season or I witnessed it in matches of other teams.
There is a sweet spot that a 60" robot cant defend.
And if drivers have a hard time finding it fast and consistently, shooting from the rear corner eliminates any chance a 60" blocker has in defending shots fired.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

469 has done 7 cycles in a match. There are several others who have done 6.

Do you know in which competition and match they did this? I'd like to look it up.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Hobo

Yes; he said that the intention was to change the gamestate (blocking), not cause a foul, so it didn't fall under G18. Also, G30 (the rule about touching bots in the protected station or the pyramid), doesn't include a clause about who pushed who, just if it happened. Our alliance didn't argue with the decision.

My primary question is: will G30 take precedence over G18 at the championship as well? If so, what kind of defense can people imagine for FCS?

At Central Washington, this was a G18-1 techincal against the bot helping the FCS.... We definintely will want clarity from the referees before play starts.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Hobo

But how many can a cycle bot do with strong defense? I've seen bots literally get shut down for 45 seconds on a single cycle because of defensive bots single-handedly blockading them on one side of the field. The higher into the championship alliances go, the more experienced and elite defensive teams will crop up; bots that have strong drivetrains and moderate-level scoring could convert as well.

You're comparing the strongest defense robots (late elims at champs) to "a cycle bot". Yes, some cycle bots can be shut down readily. But late elim championship cyclers are almost by definition more experienced and elite with good drivetrains--as defenders get better, so do their offense counterparts. I wouldn't be at all surprised by 4 or 5 under good defense, given what's doable by such teams normally. And that's not even considering what happens when there are 2 or 3 going at once.

As for alternative counter-FCS strategies--among them, score all your discs and have a better auton and end game.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by waialua359

I beg to differ on this one.
This has happened to us many times this past season or I witnessed it in matches of other teams.
There is a sweet spot that a 60" robot cant defend.
And if drivers have a hard time finding it fast and consistently, shooting from the rear corner eliminates any chance a 60" blocker has in defending shots fired.

Q623 Q. Do DISCS under the active control of a ROBOT count towards the limits defined by the PLAYING CONFIGURATION? STARTING CONFIGURATION?
A. No. No.

But maybe one a 70" robot can. Use three preload discs sticking up at 70" to make a under-pyramid blocker.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

Do you know in which competition and match they did this? I'd like to look it up.

Michigan State Championship. SF2-1 (and perhaps other matches). After their alliance shot 15/15 in autonomous (90 points!!!), they ran six full cycles to the human loader. Their seventh batch of discs was picked up off the floor. They then ran back to the human loader to grab the one disc remaining at the station, shot it (it missed), and hung for 10 points at the buzzer. By my count, they hit 31 of 34 shots they took in the match (counting autonomous). That's FCS-type numbers, and they're a cycler. Nuts.

[MrJohnston]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Michigan State Championship. SF2-1 (and perhaps other matches). After their alliance shot 15/15 in autonomous (90 points!!!), they ran six full cycles to the human loader. Their seventh batch of discs was picked up off the floor. They then ran back to the human loader to grab the one disc remaining at the station, shot it (it missed), and hung for 10 points at the buzzer. By my count, they hit 31 of 34 shots they took in the match (counting autonomous). That's FCS-type numbers, and they're a cycler. Nuts.

I didn't see it up on YouTube, yet - I'll keep trying. However,
90pts Autonomous + 31x3 Teleop +10 hang = 193 pts...
Team score was 216. Both 217 and 3539 can hang for 10 - which they presumably did? 193+20 = 213.

This would suggest that 217 and 3539 together only put up 3 teleop points... Unless they did nothing but play defense, this is unlikely.. Are you sure about the 6 cycles? That's 1 cycle every 20 seconds, followed by a hang... Most very, very good cylcers can barely do 5...