What happened to the "Patriarchy, misogyny, and sexism in robotics." thread?

[CLandrum3081]

This sort of thing isn't just a problem in FIRST. I take Project Lead the Way Pre-Engineering courses at our high school, and this is the situation:

Digital Electronics: In its first term this year, I was one of three girls of fifteen students. In the second term, I was the only girl of nine students.

Intro to Engineering Design: I don't remember how many students there were first term, but this term, I am the only girl among upwards of twenty students.

As a student aspiring to be an engineer, this is what I will have to deal with my whole life. I'll be one of a few girls in science and engineering classes. For example, the boy to girl ratio in AP Physics, another of my classes, is 2:1. This is also how it'll be in the workplace. I'll be the only girl (or maybe one of 2! ) on my team.

That is depressing.

It's not that I don't mind working with guys. I don't at all - alright, I do when they make inappropriate comments about me being the only girl there. Not to mention the sexual comments from the boys I work with, one of the hugest problems I've faced in robotics and engineering classes. (Oh my god, she mentioned it AND bolded it!) The problem is... these are some real comments from girls that I received when I invited them to join robotics or sign up for Project Lead the Way classes:

"It's too nerdy."

"But you meet in the wood shop! Ew!"

"Sorry, I'm good at math and science, but I want to go on American Idol."

"Yeah, I want to be an engineer, but I don't have the time for robotics."

"I'm not even going to college. I'm going to be a mom."

"I'm not smart enough for robotics, and I'm never going to be."

There is a serious problem in our society, but I think everyone on this thread - and this forum - is aware of that. As a girl in robotics, I have tried to recruit every girl at our high school I have met.

None have ever come to a single meeting.

There's nothing wrong with going into a non-science career. There's nothing wrong with deciding against college (although it's perhaps not a wise decision in the long run). But these girls I talked to were smart. And none of them - and I have asked upwards of forty girls - even gave coming to robotics, for even a non-technical role, a second thought.

And what is society doing in the meantime? Telling girls they need five pounds of makeup to be pretty. Telling girls the highest thing they can aspire to in life is having a size 0 waist. Oh, no wait - finding Mr. Right so he can support you.

This turned into a much bigger rant than I anticipated, but my main point is this:

It's everywhere. We can either accept it or we can try to change it. And I hate to be a pessimist, so we have to change it.

C

[asteb27]

I want to take this opportunity to brag about our team - out of our 5 student leaders, 3 of them are female. The judges always seem surprised that half the pit crew/drive train are women, but it's just the way it is. Unfortunately we have no female mentors, and next year we will have only one or two (out of 20) members.

[moogboy]

I attend an all guys, Catholic, Jesuit college preparatory high school. Our FIRST robotics team is 15 dudes, and gee whiz does it show. Ditto for our high school and academy (7th/8th grade) Lego/Vex teams. Our school is, to put it nicely, bad at teaching us not to be overly-argumentative, boastful and yes, sexist, young men. The problem for my school and the whole robotics program at said school starts from within and crawls outward like the worst kind of monster.

As I reflected on my own life earlier this year, I came to the conclusion that first I, then all the people I'm supposed to have some influence over (as a co-president of the robotics and engineering club), need to work on treating young ladies (and other groups of people who are so frequently tread upon for whatever reason) with the kind of respect and dignity they deserve as human beings.

With that in mind, I've spent this year telling my teammates and fellow students to step it up. Be classy. Stop calling girls "hot" and quit objectifying women like they only exist for your pleasure. Competitions are one of the worst places for this, because, as previously stated, we don't have girls in our school. It is too easy for guys to get caught up in their primal, animalistic urges, leading to stupid comments and generally dehumanizing behavior. It makes me uncomfortable, and I know that unfortunately sometimes the issues between girls and guys at these events go far deeper than a couple of guys quietly discussing just how callipygian someone on another team is.

I don't know the answer for everyone. I know that for me the answer is forcing myself to overcome four years of drowning in an environment where casual sexism and homophobia are the rule. I'm getting there, and FIRST is helping me do so. Having done some work with teaching robotics to middle schoolers, I've discovered that girls are sometimes (that should say 80-99% of the time) orders of magnitude better than the boys at problem solving and teamwork. Even in high school this can hold true, as I saw at the YES! Expo in November, where two girls naturally excelled at driving/operating our robot. It is one of my great dreams to eventually work with an all girls FRC team in some capacity, because if there's anything I love it's destroying cultural stereotypes, and what better way to do that than a program expressly designed to change culture?

Sorry if this is rambling and incoherent at times, but this issue plagues my mind these days.

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by asteb27

I want to take this opportunity to brag about our team - out of our 5 student leaders, 3 of them are female. The judges always seem surprised that half the pit crew/drive train are women, but it's just the way it is. Unfortunately we have no female mentors, and next year we will have only one or two (out of 20) members.

I'm quite proud to say that I mentor an all-girl FTC team (okay granted, it's a three student team at the moment, but still)

To CLandrum:

Grab those genius girls and drag them to a robotics meeting!

Seriously though, that first step is the hardest part. It took some convincing from my friends to get me to come to my first robotics meeting, but once I was there, I was hooked!

They've been told that they aren't smart enough for robotics, you need to teach them how untrue that is.

[ZoeR]

Originally Posted by asteb27

I want to take this opportunity to brag about our team - out of our 5 student leaders, 3 of them are female.

My team is in the same boat, except we have 4 student leads, 3 of which are female. Up until this year, our male:female ration was around 3:1. This year, we are now 1:1. There's really no divide in technical to non-technical which is awesome. At my high school, we're also in PLTW and everyone's required to take at least 1 year in engineering, but 2 is recommended. Robotics is the varsity and junior varsity sport at my high school. Both FTC and FRC have a course at the school, which allows FIRST alone to reach 40ish kids, equally split between males and females. Keep in mind we're a high school composed of about 380 students.

I haven't personally dealt with sexism at any regionals, but I know in previous years my team has. Our mentors just tell that we know what we're doing and that if people have a problem that girls or boys are doing certain things on the team it's their loss to not see a group dynamic work so well.

[snowflake]

I took it down because I felt that the discussion went in a direction that I did not expect. I thought I could spur discussion about the general presence of discrimination in robotics, not my personal story. I thought that was inappropriate so I took it down.

I'm glad it started this discussion though! (:

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by robonerd

Many of the girls on the team have grown so sensitive to this issue that any time someone says something that can be looked at as sexist, we jump down his throat. There's a whole culture change that needs to occur to fix this.

With issues like this, there's often a fine line between education and aggravation. Whether or not you are in the right on a matter, it's often better to pick your battles. You have to be careful to avoid breeding resentment towards your cause. If you call everyone out on each and every thing they do, the result is often the opposite of what you intended. It won't change the behavior, only ingrain it deeper.

You're absolutely right that the culture surrounding females in STEM fields (and in general) needs to be changed. But you can't be overly aggressive in attempting to change it. I'm not saying to let everything slide, but chose carefully how you handle situations.

There's a quote from the movie Lincoln that is relevant:
"A compass, I learnt when I was surveying, it'll... it'll point you True North from where you're standing, but it's got no advice about the swamps and deserts and chasms that you'll encounter along the way. If in pursuit of your destination, you plunge ahead, heedless of obstacles, and achieve nothing more than to sink in a swamp... What's the use of knowing True North?"

[asteb27]

One thing that does bother me about FIRST is how at nearly every event someone (usually more than one) will hit on one of my female team mates. This is fine, but when they say no, they are very often ignored. Have some respect and listen to what the ladies say.

[Kevin Leonard]

We're a decently sized team (and when I say "decently sized", I mean upwards of 80 students) and we're probably 1/4 girls. Which isn't great. But the girls we DO have tend to often be the hardest workers and biggest contributors. 3/4 of our co-captains are girls. Our Safety Captain, Spirit Leader, Drive Coach, and Head Animator are all girls. And we have mostly eliminated the gender bias on our team.
So I'd say we're doing good in some areas, but in others- ehhhh...
There's always room for improvement.

[Donut]

Originally Posted by CLandrum3081

Intro to Engineering Design: I don't remember how many students there were first term, but this term, I am the only girl among upwards of twenty students.

As a student aspiring to be an engineer, this is what I will have to deal with my whole life.

This is an unfortunate but true fact at the moment. The highest ratio of women to men I have seen in an engineering environment is on the FRC teams I have been apart of. In my ECE college program there were only a handful of women in each class of around 100 students. At my employer there is only 1 female in an engineering or management role in my department, most of the female managers at the site are in a financial or HR position.

Team 842 did an experiment with this back in 2007 and 2008 to give the girls on their team more exposure to roles that were typically male dominated. This topic was particularly relevant to them because of traditional gender roles in Hispanic culture. Their experience is an eye-opener showing how culture change is difficult even in an organization dedicated to changing our culture.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by CLandrum3081

As a student aspiring to be an engineer, this is what I will have to deal with my whole life. I'll be one of a few girls in science and engineering classes. For example, the boy to girl ratio in AP Physics, another of my classes, is 2:1. This is also how it'll be in the workplace. I'll be the only girl (or maybe one of 2! ) on my team.

Interestingly enough, my physics class (AP Physics B) is imbalanced the other way. Not only is the teacher a woman but our class is ~60% girls.

[Bstep]

Team 2046 Bear Metal hosted an off-season event last year called "Girls Generation." It was basically a regional style event put on by the team that had a full game field and stands and played like a regional. The only difference was that teams could send only female members. The pit crew was all female, the drive team, scouting, everything. It was very successful. Maybe someone from Bear Metal can post on this tread regarding it.

Boys were allowed to come watch the event, but they had to keep their hands off everything team related. To gear up for the event, we put a lot of time into getting the girls ready for the competition. We taught them in the shop, and the all-girls drive team was on the practice field preparing. As a direct result, this year we had many more girls working in the shop and trying out for the drive team.

[dtengineering]

I heard about the Girls Gen project and wish it had been around when I was running a team. It is an awesome idea that is worthy of replication.

Jason

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by asteb27

I want to take this opportunity to brag about our team - out of our 5 student leaders, 3 of them are female. The judges always seem surprised that half the pit crew/drive train are women, but it's just the way it is.

I hate that people still seem surprised at women taking on technical and leadership responsibilities (in all areas, not just within FIRST), but that's not going to change overnight. In the meantime, while that worldwide change is happening, I do love seeing the surprise on someone's face when they actually see women leaders in action. Because I know that, at that moment, someone's opinion is changing.

The support for women in STEM is present and growing. Again, change won't happen overnight, but it's growing like wildfire. All it takes is one supporter, of any gender, to make a difference in someone's life. Positive impact, one person at a time.

Since I first began to show an interest in engineering, I've had countless supporters and influences that have helped me along the way. I'm not sure that I can ever repay all of them for their support, or that I can ever have that great of an influence on others, but I can certainly try. "Pay it forward," if you will.

As a side note, one tactic that I've found to be pretty effective: continue to ask "why?" when being told you can't do something. Unless there's actually a valid reason for not being allowed to do it (such as not having the proper training for a machine), you eventually force them to say "because you're a girl" - which probably makes them feel pretty bad. Bam, there's another opinion changed.

[MamaSpoldi]

As a female engineering mentor for the last 7 years for both FRC and FLL teams, I am both happy and sad to read this thread. Sad because so many of these stories are too true in the way young women are made to feel insecure, inferior, and told to step aside. But happy because of the truly meaningful discussion that is happening here... and so much of it is coming from the students, both male and female.

Originally Posted by Gregor

I've heard this more than once judging FLL. "The boys all work on the robot, and the girls work on the project." It is quite disapointing.

-- Yes, I have heard this same type of comment while judging FLL tournaments. And I always make sure to point this out in the feedback section of the rubric so that teams are aware that this is not appropriate. I want to note though that as of this year the FLL guide notes that ALL team members are required to participate in the project. This is a step forward.

Originally Posted by robonerd

Speaking as a girl, I've never at all been interested in doing PR or spirit. That's not why I joined a robotics team. We're never pushed directly away from design or building, but we've often encountered sexist attitudes from other students - not the experienced members, who know to back off, but newbies who seem to think they know everything.

Sometimes our lead mentor makes jokes about us not being able to drive. He never questions our mechanical abilities, and we know he actually doesn't believe in whatever it is he's saying - he's an equal opportunity offender - but his jokes lead others to think that those kind of comments are acceptable.

Many of the girls on the team have grown so sensitive to this issue that any time someone says something that can be looked at as sexist, we jump down his throat. There's a whole culture change that needs to occur to fix this.

-- This is a very important point. Just because you say something as a "joke" doesn't mean it doesn't demean those who are the butt of that joke. And many will use that as justification to say what they wish... and to claim that you are just over-sensitive and can't take a joke.

Originally Posted by CLandrum3081

It's everywhere. We can either accept it or we can try to change it. And I hate to be a pessimist, so we have to change it.C

-- I agree. It is our job to change it... and we can as long as we work together.

Originally Posted by moogboy

With that in mind, I've spent this year telling my teammates and fellow students to step it up. Be classy. Stop calling girls "hot" and quit objectifying women like they only exist for your pleasure. Competitions are one of the worst places for this, because, as previously stated, we don't have girls in our school. It is too easy for guys to get caught up in their primal, animalistic urges, leading to stupid comments and generally dehumanizing behavior. It makes me uncomfortable, and I know that unfortunately sometimes the issues between girls and guys at these events go far deeper than a couple of guys quietly discussing just how callipygian someone on another team is.

-- This is an amazing insight from a young man who has essentially been trained to disrespect women and diminish their abilities. This is what a leader is. I hope his parents and his team are very proud... and that he continues to spread this uplifting attitude and destruction of cultural stereotypes. I am proud that (in his own words) "FIRST is helping him do so". We need more like him.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

With issues like this, there's often a fine line between education and aggravation. Whether or not you are in the right on a matter, it's often better to pick your battles. You have to be careful to avoid breeding resentment towards your cause. If you call everyone out on each and every thing they do, the result is often the opposite of what you intended. It won't change the behavior, only ingrain it deeper.

You're absolutely right that the culture surrounding females in STEM fields (and in general) needs to be changed. But you can't be overly aggressive in attempting to change it. I'm not saying to let everything slide, but chose carefully how you handle situations.

-- Yes! as with all controversial issues it is important to approach the topic with a level head. Shouting and getting upset often just turns people away from even listening to your side. It is difficult when you see it and/or feel it personally but change comes from getting others to listen. So we must remember to keep pick our battles and then pursue them with tact and decorum. [On a side note, I totally loved that quote. I never saw that movie but the quote was insightful.]

Originally Posted by Thunder910

But the girls we DO have tend to often be the hardest workers and biggest contributors.

-- From my personal experience this is often true. Not to diminish the boys contributions which are also very significant. But the point here is that usually the girls who do join the team are very committed or they wouldn't put up with the crap that they sometimes get. Additionally they are generally willing to do anything that needs to be done, even if it is not seen as important by others. This often leads to them being overworked and under-appreciated. Whereas more of the boys (I am saying more, definitely not all) that join just hang out waiting for their chance to do something fun like drive.

Originally Posted by Karibou

The support for women in STEM is present and growing. Again, change won't happen overnight, but it's growing like wildfire. All it takes is one supporter, of any gender, to make a difference in someone's life. Positive impact, one person at a time.

Since I first began to show an interest in engineering, I've had countless supporters and influences that have helped me along the way. I'm not sure that I can ever repay all of them for their support, or that I can ever have that great of an influence on others, but I can certainly try. "Pay it forward," if you will.

-- When I was in college (a very long time ago, back in the 1980s) and when I graduated and got my first job as an engineer, there were very few women in engineering and sometimes that was good and other times it was bad. It really depended on the attitude of the individual person I was dealing with. Some were rude, critical, and dismissive while others were encouraging and supportive. I'm kind of sad to see that in many ways that has not changed although I think we are moving in the right direction. I'm excited to hear from a young college student that she see it growing! That is great news... but maybe it is not changing quickly enough. I work everyday to try to show young women that I did it and so can they. And this is FIRST, so we will keep on working to change the culture. That is our mandate!