Team Update - 4/16/13

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Jared341

I am skeptical that the new practice field policy (running back to back 2:15 minute matches with FMS) is an improvement. It turns a 15 minute practice slot into 4:30 of running time. It also implies (unfortunately) that inevitable FMS related delays will now be present on the practice field as well.

If you want to tune autonomous, you get two shots and you're out.

From the practice field policy document:

There will be two full Practice Fields, located in the pits, available for teams at the 2013 FRC Championship. Teams will use their robot radio on these fields, just like on the division fields. Two divisions will be assigned to each field.

Four regional practice field goal setups will also be available for teams to use and can be found on the venue map. These setups will be tethered operation only and first-come first-serve. When using these areas please make sure you operate safely and are courteous about sharing the space with other teams.

Tuning autonomous would be a good use of one of the practice field goals.

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Todd

Tuning autonomous would be a good use of one of the practice field goals.

Not if your autonomous moves your robot any distance. I doubt they will let teams drive their robot autonomously in an ad-hoc area with a bunch of goals.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Not if your autonomous moves your robot any distance. I doubt they will let teams drive their robot autonomously in an ad-hoc area with a bunch of goals.

I believe they're referring to the 1/3 field setups that were available at many regionals (Pine Trees, and CTR at the least), in which case it'd be as useful as a practice field is at any of those regionals, with the addition of two full practice fields for mock matches.

[Brandon Holley]

I have to say, using FMS and basically putting the practice field on a match schedule seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

It takes a small army's worth of people to get teams out to their official matches on the dome floor, on the field and playing. I can only imagine what it will be like in a less "official" environment.


I fear that if the practice field begins falling behind for one reason or another, the first thing to go will be your 2nd practice match. I also fear that if a team forgets to say close a pneumatic valve or plug in a wire, being in a 'match' setting will not allow these types of issues to be corrected on the spot. A mistake like this could mean waiting in the filler line for an hour could be a total waste of time...

-Brando

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Todd

I believe they're referring to the 1/3 field setups that were available at many regionals (Pine Trees, and CTR at the least), in which case it'd be as useful as a practice field is at any of those regionals, with the addition of two full practice fields for mock matches.

It doesn't say anything about a pyramid in these areas, only goals. Without a pyramid plopped down the proper distance away from the goals and discs placed in the right spots underneath and at midfield, it's going to be hard to test what our team needs to test.

Still, just having goals will certainly be useful to a large number of teams.

[Siri]

Do we know if these tethered fields will be open Wednesday, or does the Hours of Operation section apply to both types?


I wish FIRST would offer some kind of rationalization (or warning/response period) when they make changes like this. Running matches is not what most teams I know look for on the practice field. If there's no pyramid on the tethered fields, we'll be lucky if we can climb at all.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Siri

I wish FIRST would offer some kind of rationalization (or warning/response period) when they make changes like this. Running matches is not what most teams I know look for on the practice field. If there's no pyramid on the tethered fields, we'll be lucky if we can climb at all.

Now I'm really hoping we don't have any problems with our climber because right now it doesn't look like we have an area to test in and view it up close to diagnose problems.

Why does FIRST do this?

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Jared341

It doesn't say anything about a pyramid in these areas, only goals. Without a pyramid plopped down the proper distance away from the goals and discs placed in the right spots underneath and at midfield, it's going to be hard to test what our team needs to test.

Originally Posted by BrendanB

Now I'm really hoping we don't have any problems with our climber because right now it doesn't look like we have an area to test in and view it up close to diagnose problems.

Suggest watching Q625, though I'm not expecting an answer.

I also asked Q626 (if everyone agrees, can we practice individually for 15 minutes), but I think we know the answer there. Actually, I don't even know how hard it is to switch the FMS between these two options.


Dustin,
Yes, that's what I'm referencing, but I don't see anything on there that indicates those hours of operation apply to the tethered "regional practice field goal setups". As written, it seems they only apply to what FIRST has capitalized as "Practice Fields", which are the full-size, wireless practice match fields. I'll work under the assumption they're the same hours to be safe, but it'd be nice to know for planning Wednesday.

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Siri

I don't even know how hard it is to switch the FMS between these two options.

You would have to modify the time allowed for a match, this was my first year as scorekeeper and I seem to remember an option to do so. At MN 10K Lakes we had a long exhibition match where some news crews took videos of a couple robots before the venue opened one morning. I believe it was relatively easy to do so.

[Wetzel]

I suspect that the practice field setup will end up being a net plus for teams testing autonomous pickup/defense modes. I also suspect that team members will be pressed into service to reset the practice field whilst their team is out there.

Brandon - spend that hour in line making sure that your pneumatics are closed and charged. The match cycles on the competition field are going to be tight, you start a match with an open pneumatic valve and it will be a greater loss than a practice field match.

Wetzel

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Brandon - spend that hour in line making sure that your pneumatics are closed and charged. The match cycles on the competition field are going to be tight, you start a match with an open pneumatic valve and it will be a greater loss than a practice field match.

Wetzel

I agree, I just think part of the key advantage of a practice field is being able to adjust and look at things as they happen instead of just plowing through 2 minutes without knowing exactly what's going on.

For example, if you are jammed- you want to be able to freeze time, run out to the robot and see EXACTLY what's going on. Ditto for 30 point climbers who want to see why a hook won't latch, etc.


Just running matches does take away a good portion of that troubleshooting aspect of practice time.

-Brando

[joelg236]

I don't think this will work well. A majority of the time that we need the practise field, its because of things that we specifically could not figure out without a close look at the robot. I just know the practise field will be a long wait all day too. I couldn't imagine having to practise climbing 30...

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I agree, I just think part of the key advantage of a practice field is being able to adjust and look at things as they happen instead of just plowing through 2 minutes without knowing exactly what's going on.

For example, if you are jammed- you want to be able to freeze time, run out to the robot and see EXACTLY what's going on. Ditto for 30 point climbers who want to see why a hook won't latch, etc.


Just running matches does take away a good portion of that troubleshooting aspect of practice time.

-Brando

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

[PayneTrain]

"Man, you know what we're missing at CMP?"

"More things controlled by the FMS?!"

"YOU'RE DARN RIGHT!"

-Probable conversation I wish was held in alternate reality where the FMS was actually not a source of delays and tears.

[mlantry]

i could see people who want to climb 30 on the practice field avoiding it in fear that their robot will fall if the climber isn't perfect or was added for championship.