Team Update - 4/16/13

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Siri

Do we know if these tethered fields will be open Wednesday, or does the Hours of Operation section apply to both types?


I wish FIRST would offer some kind of rationalization (or warning/response period) when they make changes like this. Running matches is not what most teams I know look for on the practice field. If there's no pyramid on the tethered fields, we'll be lucky if we can climb at all.

Practice fields will not be open Wednesday Evening.

The Rest of the Schedule is as follows:

Thursday 7:30AM to 8PM

Friday 7:30AM to 6:30PM (Closed for Opening Ceremonies, 8:15-9am)

Saturday 7:30AM to 10:30AM...

Not sure what the 10:30AM Close time on Saturday Morning is all about, I hope that it has something to do with them being reserved for Elimination Alliances or something like that.

Relevant Document: http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...ice_Fields.pdf

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Not sure what the 10:30AM Close time on Saturday Morning is all about, I hope that it has something to do with them being reserved for Elimination Alliances or something like that.

Relevant Document: http://www.usfirst.org/sites/default...ice_Fields.pdf

If it's like last year, there won't be enough time for all elimination round alliances to get practice time after alliance selections are over.

Y'all have fun with that!

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Siri

Dustin,
Yes, that's what I'm referencing, but I don't see anything on there that indicates those hours of operation apply to the tethered "regional practice field goal setups". As written, it seems they only apply to what FIRST has capitalized as "Practice Fields", which are the full-size, wireless practice match fields. I'll work under the assumption they're the same hours to be safe, but it'd be nice to know for planning Wednesday.

The way I interpreted the document is that the Goal Setups (we should call this shooting galleries or firing ranges or some other more interesting name) operate the same hours as the other practice fields - though it would make sense for them to be open instead of the full fields on Wednesday night since they - in theory - only need one volunteer to operate.

Now that I think about it, if there isn't somewhere 'safe' to shoot discs on Wednesday night things could get interesting...

Originally Posted by Travis Hoffman

If it's like last year, there won't be enough time for all elimination round alliances to get practice time after alliance selections are over.

Y'all have fun with that!

We were lucky enough to be able to get onto the practice field last year without too much hassle. Then again, our pit was 25' or so from the field so that helped...

[Cory]

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Cory

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

Can't agree with this more. I'd be totally okay with this change if they were open with their reasoning (and the reasons were good)

[GearsOfFury]

This is just awful. I was really looking forward to the managed, allotted time blocks that the 2012 Championships offered, at least in writing. How well did this work in practice last year? I'd much rather have one and only one solid guaranteed 15 minute debugging session than try to wait in line, feel rushed, hope someone doesn't overstay their welcome, or have to pop out for a match.

Just trying to understand if someone knows more on the reasoning of the change.

[jblay]

I feel like this practice field arrangement will result in fewer teams getting their 7 disc auto working for championship, that didn't have it before championship. It's a shame that this looks like it will change how the game evolves at championship.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Cory

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

This game is actually very dangerous with most teams firing discs at extremely high speed as well as climbing multiple levels. Safety could have played into the decision. We aren't shooting poof balls or just climbing to one level our robots this year can cause injuries!


If safety was a factor I hope FIRST would tell us that so it sits better not, "I think this is a better idea lets give it a try."

[Cory]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

This game is actually very dangerous with most teams firing discs at extremely high speed as well as climbing multiple levels. Safety could have played into the decision. We aren't shooting poof balls or just climbing to one level our robots this year can cause injuries!


If safety was a factor I hope FIRST would tell us that so it sits better not, "I think this is a better idea lets give it a try."

Then they should have disallowed people being on the practice field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Cory

Then they should have disallowed people being on the field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

I went to 6 events this year and at no time were people on the field whilst robots were active.

Edit: I was referring the full field above. The practice field was often a mess and required constant supervision.

Wetzel

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Cory

Then they should have disallowed people being on the field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

Very true, however how many regional events had a full field for tethered practice in 2013? If 2013 practice field rules were the same as previous years, how many teams would be on the field at once? I don't know about you but at every regional I have been to in 10 years the practice field has been small and not a full field so FIRST wouldn't have seen this until they started planning the 2013 practice field rules.

The safety side does make sense when you have teams like 67, 1519, 987, 610, and other FCS cranking away full court shots and others want to test too. I personally would not want to be on the field testing while those teams are.

If safety was their reasoning it makes sense. I agree it would be nice to know that reasoning.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

The safety side does make sense when you have teams like 67, 1519, 987, 610, and other FCS cranking away full court shots and others want to test too. I personally would not want to be on the field testing while those teams are.

On the field at all, or on the goal side? If the concern was teams interfering with each other, why not just improve on the regional model of putting each team in a requested position? If they orchestrate it as well as in the past, having 6 teams on a full field (3 at each pyramid, or 2 FCSs + 3 pyramid + 1 driving) wouldn't present the safety issues that regionals trying to squeeze 3-4 teams onto a 1/3 field do.

Other than the FCS option, Worlds is less dangerous than the events I've attended: the field is more open (no pillar in the middle ), no tethers running everywhere, only 3 teams per pyramid.

[Grim Tuesday]

If they really did do it for the purpose of allowing teams to play 'real' practice matches (ie practice driving) then why not allow both on the field but not at the same time. Every other 15 minute slot could be tethered and teams can sign up for whichever one they want. Maybe to regulate it say that one of the flex slots must be in a driving practice and the other in a tethered practice.

I think that, on a 6 team field, there really are major safety issues. Full court shooting comes to mind. There would have to be safety regulations for the tethered field time where other people are on the field requiring hard hats and disallowing shooting from beyond x distance. Additionally, climbing and shooting could be difficult together: if one team wants to climb the back horizontal bars of the pyramid and the other wants to shoot from the back, they could intersect. To solve this, practice zones would have to be reserved and designed so that robots could not interfere with each other or endanger the people on the field.

Sure, lots of problems exist but they all seem solvable.

[Nuttyman54]

If I had to guess, I would say the reasoning behind this change is a direct response to the issues on Einstein 2012. They are hoping that running full practice matches with FMS will allow teams and CSAs to identify and debug control system problems by providing conditions identical to the real field. Potentially transferring delays from the competition fields to the practice fields.

It's not a good reason, and the logic seems flawed to me, but I think it's the most reasonable explanation for why they chose this new format.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

If I had to guess, I would say the reasoning behind this change is a direct response to the issues on Einstein 2012. They are hoping that running full practice matches with FMS will allow teams and CSAs to identify and debug control system problems by providing conditions identical to the real field. Potentially transferring delays from the competition fields to the practice fields.

It's not a good reason, and the logic seems flawed to me, but I think it's the most reasonable explanation for why they chose this new format.

I'm all for solving FMS issues on the practice field, but does that required running structured matches? Regardless, it'd be nice if FIRST would publish their rationale for making tuning autonomous and climbing routines that much more difficult.