Team Update - 4/16/13

[ehochstein]

Originally Posted by Siri

I don't even know how hard it is to switch the FMS between these two options.

You would have to modify the time allowed for a match, this was my first year as scorekeeper and I seem to remember an option to do so. At MN 10K Lakes we had a long exhibition match where some news crews took videos of a couple robots before the venue opened one morning. I believe it was relatively easy to do so.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Brandon - spend that hour in line making sure that your pneumatics are closed and charged. The match cycles on the competition field are going to be tight, you start a match with an open pneumatic valve and it will be a greater loss than a practice field match.

Wetzel

I agree, I just think part of the key advantage of a practice field is being able to adjust and look at things as they happen instead of just plowing through 2 minutes without knowing exactly what's going on.

For example, if you are jammed- you want to be able to freeze time, run out to the robot and see EXACTLY what's going on. Ditto for 30 point climbers who want to see why a hook won't latch, etc.


Just running matches does take away a good portion of that troubleshooting aspect of practice time.

-Brando

[joelg236]

I don't think this will work well. A majority of the time that we need the practise field, its because of things that we specifically could not figure out without a close look at the robot. I just know the practise field will be a long wait all day too. I couldn't imagine having to practise climbing 30...

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

I agree, I just think part of the key advantage of a practice field is being able to adjust and look at things as they happen instead of just plowing through 2 minutes without knowing exactly what's going on.

For example, if you are jammed- you want to be able to freeze time, run out to the robot and see EXACTLY what's going on. Ditto for 30 point climbers who want to see why a hook won't latch, etc.


Just running matches does take away a good portion of that troubleshooting aspect of practice time.

-Brando

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

[PayneTrain]

"Man, you know what we're missing at CMP?"

"More things controlled by the FMS?!"

"YOU'RE DARN RIGHT!"

-Probable conversation I wish was held in alternate reality where the FMS was actually not a source of delays and tears.

[mlantry]

i could see people who want to climb 30 on the practice field avoiding it in fear that their robot will fall if the climber isn't perfect or was added for championship.

[connor.worley]

Well, this looks useless.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

This is my point exactly. You can't do this stuff with 6 teams operating as a practice match.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

I too agree the practice field wasn't the best managed at several events. At Pine Tree when we were testing our climber there were two other robots testing their shooters on the either side of the pryamid. Not the safest setup but all teams on the field were asked prior if we we could share a slot and we agreed.

Champs would be best setup with the following:

1. Two full practice fields for tethered operation (two for each division just like we always have had).

2. Several carpeted practice spaces that could include the following setup (One set of goals with pyramid spaced to field specs and next to it a stand alone pyramid for climb testing).


Now I am all for radio practice matches those are good and if FIRST/the community saw a need for these I would recommend one full practice field for tethered testing and one full practice field for full practice matches (run one match at a time for quick turn over of teams) AND increase the number of option 2 above so more teams can do tethered testing.

The reasons Brandon has mentioned are the reasons we need tethered field testing. The purpose is to diagnose while operating. If not how will you know what to fix or where your problems lie. Most of the time we have issues in a regular match we say, "Straight to the practice field/pit to test this" not, "Lets get right back in line for another match".

[Cory]

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

[Wetzel]

One of the things that bugs me is that way FMS and the robot interface is different than the practice field without FMS. I had a number of teams at events this year that we could identify a problem but would be unable to replicate it on the practice field. I got the CSAs involved and we would eventually hammer it out. It sucked not being able to run a test match with FMS outside of qual rounds to try and identify the cause/test potential solutions. It's frustrating. This will help with that, but I suspect that most of the teams that made it to Championship will have had those problems knocked out at prior events.

Wetzel

[joelg236]

Originally Posted by Cory

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

Can't agree with this more. I'd be totally okay with this change if they were open with their reasoning (and the reasons were good)

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Cory

Yet again FIRST blows it big time. Pure genius move. Obviously nobody at FIRST understands why teams use the practice fields. It's got nothing to do with practicing driving and everything to do with debugging.

If this was a safety issue they should have said "due to the unsafe nature of having multiple robots and people interacting on the practice field, we have decided...". Instead it just makes it sound like they did it for the hell of it.

They've allowed people on the practice field with their robots for a very long time. It's hard to believe it only became a safety concern now.

This game is actually very dangerous with most teams firing discs at extremely high speed as well as climbing multiple levels. Safety could have played into the decision. We aren't shooting poof balls or just climbing to one level our robots this year can cause injuries!


If safety was a factor I hope FIRST would tell us that so it sits better not, "I think this is a better idea lets give it a try."

[GearsOfFury]

This is just awful. I was really looking forward to the managed, allotted time blocks that the 2012 Championships offered, at least in writing. How well did this work in practice last year? I'd much rather have one and only one solid guaranteed 15 minute debugging session than try to wait in line, feel rushed, hope someone doesn't overstay their welcome, or have to pop out for a match.

Just trying to understand if someone knows more on the reasoning of the change.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

This game is actually very dangerous with most teams firing discs at extremely high speed as well as climbing multiple levels. Safety could have played into the decision. We aren't shooting poof balls or just climbing to one level our robots this year can cause injuries!


If safety was a factor I hope FIRST would tell us that so it sits better not, "I think this is a better idea lets give it a try."

Then they should have disallowed people being on the practice field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.