Team Update - 4/16/13

[jblay]

I feel like this practice field arrangement will result in fewer teams getting their 7 disc auto working for championship, that didn't have it before championship. It's a shame that this looks like it will change how the game evolves at championship.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Cory

Then they should have disallowed people being on the field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

I went to 6 events this year and at no time were people on the field whilst robots were active.

Edit: I was referring the full field above. The practice field was often a mess and required constant supervision.

Wetzel

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Cory

Then they should have disallowed people being on the field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

Very true, however how many regional events had a full field for tethered practice in 2013? If 2013 practice field rules were the same as previous years, how many teams would be on the field at once? I don't know about you but at every regional I have been to in 10 years the practice field has been small and not a full field so FIRST wouldn't have seen this until they started planning the 2013 practice field rules.

The safety side does make sense when you have teams like 67, 1519, 987, 610, and other FCS cranking away full court shots and others want to test too. I personally would not want to be on the field testing while those teams are.

If safety was their reasoning it makes sense. I agree it would be nice to know that reasoning.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Cory

Then they should have disallowed people being on the practice field with the robots after week 1 regionals. They can't possibly only have figured out now that frisbees are unsafe.

Took 'em 7 weeks to conclude there'd be a barrage of HP lobbed discs at the end of the match.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

The safety side does make sense when you have teams like 67, 1519, 987, 610, and other FCS cranking away full court shots and others want to test too. I personally would not want to be on the field testing while those teams are.

On the field at all, or on the goal side? If the concern was teams interfering with each other, why not just improve on the regional model of putting each team in a requested position? If they orchestrate it as well as in the past, having 6 teams on a full field (3 at each pyramid, or 2 FCSs + 3 pyramid + 1 driving) wouldn't present the safety issues that regionals trying to squeeze 3-4 teams onto a 1/3 field do.

Other than the FCS option, Worlds is less dangerous than the events I've attended: the field is more open (no pillar in the middle ), no tethers running everywhere, only 3 teams per pyramid.

[Grim Tuesday]

If they really did do it for the purpose of allowing teams to play 'real' practice matches (ie practice driving) then why not allow both on the field but not at the same time. Every other 15 minute slot could be tethered and teams can sign up for whichever one they want. Maybe to regulate it say that one of the flex slots must be in a driving practice and the other in a tethered practice.

I think that, on a 6 team field, there really are major safety issues. Full court shooting comes to mind. There would have to be safety regulations for the tethered field time where other people are on the field requiring hard hats and disallowing shooting from beyond x distance. Additionally, climbing and shooting could be difficult together: if one team wants to climb the back horizontal bars of the pyramid and the other wants to shoot from the back, they could intersect. To solve this, practice zones would have to be reserved and designed so that robots could not interfere with each other or endanger the people on the field.

Sure, lots of problems exist but they all seem solvable.

[Nuttyman54]

If I had to guess, I would say the reasoning behind this change is a direct response to the issues on Einstein 2012. They are hoping that running full practice matches with FMS will allow teams and CSAs to identify and debug control system problems by providing conditions identical to the real field. Potentially transferring delays from the competition fields to the practice fields.

It's not a good reason, and the logic seems flawed to me, but I think it's the most reasonable explanation for why they chose this new format.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

If I had to guess, I would say the reasoning behind this change is a direct response to the issues on Einstein 2012. They are hoping that running full practice matches with FMS will allow teams and CSAs to identify and debug control system problems by providing conditions identical to the real field. Potentially transferring delays from the competition fields to the practice fields.

It's not a good reason, and the logic seems flawed to me, but I think it's the most reasonable explanation for why they chose this new format.

I'm all for solving FMS issues on the practice field, but does that required running structured matches? Regardless, it'd be nice if FIRST would publish their rationale for making tuning autonomous and climbing routines that much more difficult.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Now comes the tricky part: how do you do choose when to freeze time when you have 6 teams out there?

I saw some seriously questionable choices made by teams on the practice field this year - shooting long distance shots over other teams, one robot climbing whilst another team took their robot down from 30 point land, robots driving into people on other teams. I know the UL guys noted a lot of these things and I bet there was a report with recommendations made. I miss the days when we could put one person on the field with the robot during Thursday at regionals, but I understand the concern with other robots out there.

Adjusting the match time in FMS is not difficult.

Wetzel

When it comes to making sure their robots are perfect teams don't always engage in the wisest behaviors. The practice fields tend to be a Wild West where teams seem to forget their common sense and GP and climb over each other for time on every available scrap of carpet.

[Bob Steele]

Anyone else notice that there is no mention of changing point values for the pyramid? It would appear that they will not be changed. I would think they would have put this in this Update if they were going to do it.

[apalrd]

IMO, what teams REALLY want to do on the practice field is:

-Run and calibrate autonomous
-Test and calibrate shots - This could include alignment, and actual shooting
-Climb

All of these are generally done with humans reloading, resetting, or watching the robot closely to identify problems seen and what causes them. The first two often require a code laptop to be connected actively for calibration.

I don't think it's possible to calibrate at all while connected through FMS due the strict port blocking (e.g. we need both LabVIEW realtime and FTP to do anything realistic with code, both are blocked by FMS effectively making the practice field useless for us).


The real answer is to have a practice field attendant ask teams where they need to have their robot, arrange all of the robots on the field so they don't interfere with each other, and let them run on tethers. I can't really think of an event I've ever been at where this method did not provide enough development space or time. In fact, the 2011 championship practice fields ran in this way (but with time cards).


Maybe if they want to give CSA's a place to do FMS testing, they should setup a spare FMS somewhere with a little carpet for FMS testing, just enough to prove a robot moves and responds to controls. Realistically, if a team hasn't gotten field issues resolved by qualifications at CMP, aside from the larger overcomplexity/general unreliability of the current system, there's not a whole lot more you can do.