Einstein 2013

[Walter Deitzler]

Edit:: Gregor beat me too it.

Originally Posted by Justin Shelley

When it was originally determined that Newton beat Galileo in the second match and therefore put Newton in the finals. This was overturned because of a disc mis-count that was proved by reviewing video from the match and allowed Galileo to beat Newton in the third match therefore advancing to the Einstein Finals.

Not quite.

Originally Posted by Siri

Yes, they did indeed hand count directly after our match. The error wasn't in counting but in adding.

Frank explained it to us personally during finals. They put those baskets up, raise the center of the goal to empty the discs, and then count each basket separately (subtract auton discs later). The two baskets for us were 20 and 26, but instead of writing 46 the scorer inverted it and wrote 64. They didn't recount the discs (because they didn't find it until way later...ouch), Frank just showed us the physical paper on which they'd scribbled:

20
26
64

It hurt (a lot more than it would have otherwise), but there was no doubt and no legal reason to replay. Of course, explaining that to crying students is another issue

Galileo deserved it though. They were both fair wins, and personally couldn't think of a better alliance to lose to. Everyone was very gracious. Congratulations, guys!

In other news, awesome job 610, 1477, and 1241, you guys were AWESOME and most definitely deserved the win. These are the best finals I have seen in my time in FIRST. (And don't even get me started on Galileo eliminations, those were intense!)

[Justin Shelley]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Oh really?

I was relaying what my mentor told me and he was a volunteer sitting right off the field. Perhaps they used the video to bring it to the attention of the staff of the error. Perhaps not, but my mentor usually never assumes things so i'm pretty inclined to believe there was a video used somewhere to help get the point across. He told me of the 18 disc error

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Justin Shelley

Perhaps they used the video to bring it to the attention of the staff of the error.error

If they did they shouldn't have.

5.5.3
The Head Referee will not review recorded replays under any circumstances.

[Abhishek R]

Referees wouldn't watch video at our regionals either, when we tried to show them video of missed fouls and miscounted matches, they wouldn't watch it, as that is the rule. However, on the biggest stage of FRC, there was reason to believe that with only two active robots, there may have been a miscount in the number of points scored. I wouldn't want to mess up on Einstein.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

Referees wouldn't watch video at our regionals either, when we tried to show them video of missed fouls and miscounted matches, they wouldn't watch it, as that is the rule. However, on the biggest stage of FRC, there was reason to believe that with only two active robots, there may have been a miscount in the number of points scored. I wouldn't want to mess up on Einstein.

Agreed, the total was clearly off, and having a pre-college student addressing that is the correct course of action, as shown in section 5.3.3.

The Head Referee can then do what they please, (including consulting FIRST personel), but they may not review video under any circumstance. Doesn't matter if it's the lowest scoring regional, or FIRST's biggest stage, under no circumstances is pretty clear.

The Head Referee has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the event, but may receive input from additional sources, e.g. Game Designers, FIRST personnel, and technical staff.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Oh really?

Yeah, Siri's post really doesn't address how the score/count/addition was pointed out to be incorrect. I would have guessed that it was simply an "oh duh" moment for whoever did the additions, but that's just speculation. Could have been something else, including reviewing match video. As for whether or not they should have reviewed video, the rules are pretty clear. On the other hand, I prefer a fair outcome (breaking rules optional). Especially when I'm not a fan of the rule (should ban 3rd party video, rather than any video at all).

I'm guessing we'll get a thorough explanation from Frank sometime in the next few days (once everything cools down).

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by Basel A

I'm guessing we'll get a thorough explanation from Frank sometime in the next few days (once everything cools down).

I hope so. Frank has been very forthcoming thus far. On the bright side, this is far from the debacle last year. Honest mistakes happen. Although, at a competition focused on inspiring students in the areas of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, a basic arithmetic error (if that's what it was) is not particularly inspiring. The important thing is that the lessons that can be learned, are learned, and the appropriate safeguards are put in place for the future.

[DCA Fan]

Siri's account is correct. It was a simple dyslexia/miscommunication error that was noticed and corrected. No replay video was used in the decision.

[DampRobot]

Can I give a big shout out to 1678? First, it's cool to see a Cali team make it to the highest stage at world champs, but the Citrus Circuits are truly inspirational in additional ways. They went from virtually unknown a few years ago to being extremely competitive for all of the last three years (dare I say, powerhouse?). Their robot might not look as clean and professional as a 254 or 148 bot, but it's nevertheless very high performance. 1678 is a testament to what awesome prototyping, driver practice, and good old fashioned hard work can do.

[Ryan Dognaux]

I just wanted to recognize 303, 3476 & 1640 for playing an amazing strategy on Newton and onto Einstein. 3476's floor pickup was some of the best I've seen all year. 303's full court shooting was top notch and 1640's ability to go from collecting discs and shooting to playing defense at the drop of a hat was great to watch, and that 30 point climb absolutely gave you the edge.

I know it's going to take some time to get over the scoring mistakes made on Einstein, but be proud of how far you went this year. You all surprised everyone and I think you had the entire stadium rooting for you in the Newton finals.

I was hoping to see MAR vs. Michigan play out on the biggest stage and for a second there it almost happened.

We really, really have to make sure that this kind of stuff doesn't happen again next year. Two years running Einstein ran less than spectacular, for different reasons, but to me it didn't feel like Einstein until the final matches because of this scoring goof.

[TylerS]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

I just wanted to recognize 303, 3476 & 1640 for playing an amazing strategy on Newton and onto Einstein. 3476's floor pickup was some of the best I've seen all year. 303's full court shooting was top notch and 1640's ability to go from collecting discs and shooting to playing defense at the drop of a hat was great to watch, and that 30 point climb absolutely gave you the edge.

I know it's going to take some time to get over the scoring mistakes made on Einstein, but be proud of how far you went this year. You all surprised everyone and I think you had the entire stadium rooting for you in the Newton finals.

I was hoping to see MAR vs. Michigan play out on the biggest stage and for a second there it almost happened.

We really, really have to make sure that this kind of stuff doesn't happen again next year. Two years running Einstein ran less than spectacular, for different reasons, but to me it didn't feel like Einstein until the final matches because of this scoring goof.

Thanks it means a lot to hear that especially from someone just pointing it out on the internet.

[Nick Lawrence]

Wow, simply wow. I have a million and one stories to share of this weekend, but I'm going to need a couple days to process the whirlwind that this weekend was. I'm so proud of our students and mentors alike, for never giving up in the face of adversity every step of the way. Thank you as well to our partners 1241 and 1477 for making this dream a reality. And thank you as well to 469, 33 and 1519. I couldn't have asked for a better group of teams to compete against in the big show.

Threedom for life.

-Nick

[WhoRWe]

As a member of 303, I'd like to congratulate the Champions, 1241-1477-610, who are some of the best robots to play on Einstein. This alliance definitely deserved the victory in match 2 and 3 of the semifinals. While the way match 2 was handled definitely was disappointing, there was no need for a reset of the match, only the scoring was incorrect.

Overall, the experience of the entire competition was amazing. Making it to Einstein with 3476 and 1640 (who I cannot thank enough), was absolutely the greatest moment in 303 history.

I can only hope that next year can be just as (or even more) amazing than this year!

[VioletElizabeth]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

Can I give a big shout out to 1678? First, it's cool to see a Cali team make it to the highest stage at world champs, but the Citrus Circuits are truly inspirational in additional ways. They went from virtually unknown a few years ago to being extremely competitive for all of the last three years (dare I say, powerhouse?). Their robot might not look as clean and professional as a 254 or 148 bot, but it's nevertheless very high performance. 1678 is a testament to what awesome prototyping, driver practice, and good old fashioned hard work can do.

I second that shout out!

Their robot was my favorite at Davis last year, simply because it looked like a signboard but shot so perfectly. It was amazing this year to see their 7disk autonomous on Einstein. Also, it was really nice talking to their mentor.

[Grim Tuesday]

Special shout out to Jondarr Bradshaw, the best announcer in FIRST. I'm glad they let him announce on Einstein this year, he really has an amazing voice.

I think all the congratulations have already been said. One word about the alliances that made it to Einstein and have in previous years:

They were true alliances.

Other alliances may have had the best robots but it seems to me that the ones that win Einstein are composed of not just two of the very best and a good one but a true power team as the third bot. How 610, 1519, 862, 1640 fell to the second round is stupendous.

It's interesting to take a look at the pedigree of each of the Einstein bots and where they were in the draft:

Archimedes 2nd alliance: 33 (3 districts), 469 (3 districts and MSC), 1519 (1 regional) (1 State Championship, 6 districts, 1 regional)

Curie 1st alliance: 1678 (1 regional, 148 (2 regionals), 862 (2 districts) (2 districts, 3 regionals)

Newton 3rd alliance: 303 (no wins), 3476 (no wins), 1640 (MAR cmp as 16th pick) (1 Region Championship)

Galileo 5th alliance: 1241 (no wins), 1477 (1 win [almost didn't qualify]), 610 (1 win) (2 regional wins)

The combined OPR pre-championship of each alliance using best OPR was [in order of pick]:
Archimedes: 74+92+64= 230
Curie: 46+71+68= 185
Newton: 47+50+43= 140
Galileo: 55+77+63= 195

So Archimedes was highly favored to win but Galileo was close enough. Also note how in none of the alliances did the alliance captain have the best OPR prior to Championships.