Thank You, Team 217

[AnonymousNewton]

Originally Posted by EricH

If a team does not think that they are fixable, the team does not think that they are fixable. End of Story.

If some members of that team think otherwise, and effect a fix, and do not successfully communicate that fact to the rest of the team, the team has a severe internal communication problem. AFAIK, 217 does not have such an internal communication problem. Therefore, it is to be assumed that while perhaps some members of the team were trying to fix the robot, even they thought that they would not be ready in time for eliminations, and requested that nobody pick them.

However, the only way to guarantee not being picked is to decline a pick. If you think someone might be bluffing, call their bluff. If you don't call it, and it bites you, then that's your problem.

This is fair. The long and short of it is that a mentor from 227 told us that their robot was broken beyond repair and to cross us off our list. End of.

Someone earlier said something along the lines of "since when do teams take other team's scouting information?" I forgot to address this, but I have seen teams sharing scouting info all over the place. There are editable google docs for community scouting information, and we had multiple teams in our pit volunteering electronic stats and info throughout this week -- which is great.

Why would we have any reason to distrust another alliances scouting info or word? We're all gracious professionals, no? While it may have been advantageous to "call their bluff," we shouldn't have to resort to such measures.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by AnonymousNewton

I don't disagree with this post. I concede that it's childish and probably irrelevant but it's something that I felt warranted discussion. I wanted to get some other opinions on the subject. It seems that most people believe I'm in the wrong here and perhaps I am. But again, looking at it from or prospective it's easy to see how we jumped to these conclusions.

I think you know that you are in the wrong on many fronts, but I do understand the mentality. The rush of emotion when something unexpected like that happens is crazy and insane.

My team has gone through that scenario in our minds as well. The past two years have really opened our eyes, but after a certain point, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt.

At the P'tree regional, a scenario went down where 2415 was approached by the first seed for a pick. 2415, who had struggled for the greater part of the regional, simply commented that they were having consistency issues to give full disclosure to the first seed. The first seed then opted to go with someone else, and 2415 powered through their issues and dominated the finals (for the two matches they played).

So it follows that perhaps 217 was simply alerting you of their situation with pure intentions. Perhaps they just wanted you to know what you were getting into. Whether it was experience, trust, or foresight, your team chose not to roll the dice on this and 1538 did. *shrug*

I'm not sure if anyone else on this forums understands, but I can tell you that I understand what you're feeling (having felt it before). However, these feelings are poisonous; they prevent us from being the best version of ourselves. It does not do to dwell on what could've been and forget to move forward.

- Sunny G.

[AnonymousNewton]

Originally Posted by ttldomination

I think you know that you are in the wrong on many fronts, but I do understand the mentality. The rush of emotion when something unexpected like that happens is crazy and insane.

My team has gone through that scenario in our minds as well. The past two years have really opened our eyes, but after a certain point, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt.

At the P'tree regional, a scenario went down where 2415 was approached by the first seed for a pick. 2415, who had struggled for the greater part of the regional, simply commented that they were having consistency issues to give full disclosure to the first seed. The first seed then opted to go with someone else, and 2415 powered through their issues and dominated the finals (for the two matches they played).

So it follows that perhaps 217 was simply alerting you of their situation with pure intentions. Perhaps they just wanted you to know what you were getting into. Whether it was experience, trust, or foresight, your team chose not to roll the dice on this and 1538 did. *shrug*

I'm not sure if anyone else on this forums understands, but I can tell you that I understand what you're feeling (having felt it before). However, these feelings are poisonous; they prevent us from being the best version of ourselves. It does not do to dwell on what could've been and forget to move forward.

- Sunny G.

Thank you for your understanding. I want to clarify that as a team we are not as bitter as you have made it sound. We are extremely proud of what we've accomplished and thrilled that we made it to elims. We went into our elimination matches knowing we didn't have a shot at Einstein. Please consider this thread entirely seperate from my team, and although emotions were running high, this wasn't merely a spur of the moment accusation of rage.

I still stand by my original position, childish as the argument is. This issue isn't black and white, everyone knows that. But in my opinion, teams employed deception to gain an advantage (whether or not it worked out in the end) and I do have a problem with that. Even it was simply an exaggeration of the true depth of their problems, the fact remains that they told us they were beyond repair and miraculously found themselves in working order by the very first elimination match.

[iVanDuzer]

Originally Posted by AnonymousNewton

Does nobody have a problem with the fact that 217 told us specifically to cross them off our list -- with NO ambiguity -- when in fact they were fixable? I understand the point about double checking through our own scout team but that isn't the issue here.

I don't. There's a big difference between thinking "we can't fix this." and thinking "we HAVE to fix this because now we're part of an alliance." 217 is a two time former World Champ and multiple Einstein team - they understand what it takes to win the Big Show. The biggest part of that is creating an alliance that relies on each other. Knowing that two other teams rely on you for their success is a pretty big motivator.

Now, why didn't they decline when they were picked? It would have been the gracious thing to do, right? Unless 1538 told them NOT to say no. Maybe 1538 said "We're going to try to pick you anyways, because if you manage to get fixed you will be the steal of our alliance." After all, the Thunderchickens had an absolutely ridiculous upswing that (obviously) helped make a solid alliance. It might have been worth the risk of having to take a backup bot if there was also a chance of getting the perfect third robot. Maybe 1538's confidence in 217 was a strong enough motivator too.

[MARS_James]

It should also be pretty much common sense to think along these lines:

217 thought they were done and out beyond repairs. They do in fact tell 1538 and 1986 this and while these two are waiting for the other 7 alliance to be made they are discussing who to pick. When it became obvious to them that 217 would be the perfect choice these two teams decided that between 217's crew, as well as their own teams (Who may I remind you built Robots that went 36-4 and 53-4 respectively at that point) could these crews working together during the hour break diagnose the problem, think of the quickest best solution to get it running and try to maintain and improve it through the competition?

My opinion is that between these three teams with 20 Regional/Distict Wins, 5 Championship Division wins, 2 Championship wins, and one of them being in the Hall of Fame as of this year: If anyone could pull this off and make me believe it, these three teams are it

[saikiranra]

I do understand where you are coming from, and I doubt I wouldn't feel the same way, however after playing with 1538 at IE I have a new found respect for them. They were some of the most gracious people there. On the Friday of the regional, we were having some communication issues. The first person that came to help us was, I believe, their mentor and drive coach. After spending at least an hour with us running tests, he couldn't figure it out, but gave us a replacement cRio for the rest of the regional. Even after our qualification match where our alliance broke their arm, they were jovial and seemed not to harbor hurt feelings.

Not also mention not any team can join the hall of fame.

[pntbll1313]

As a mentor of a team that was an alliance captain 217 did come to us and tell us they were not able to be repaired. They said if you pick us, we will decline.

We then approached a mentor of 217 after the alliance selection and asked how they were able to fix their robot. Their mentor said something to the effect of "we only wanted to play with the number 1 alliance." I wonder if other picking alliances were told this same thing or if was just us.

[Robby Unruh]

Originally Posted by pntbll1313

Their mentor said something to the effect of "we only wanted to play with the number 1 alliance." I wonder if other picking alliances were told this same thing or if was just us.

If this is true, that is terrible and it goes against everything FIRST has/ever will stand for. But seeing that 217 is such a highly respected team, something tells me that this isn't true, and if it's not, you and OP need to take a timeout and think about what you're REALLY accusing them of doing.

[pntbll1313]

I am not implying at all that 1538 and 1986 had any knowledge of this at all. When we worked with both of them they were stand up teams. I do doubt however that the mentor and student going around from 217 told 1538 that "if you pick us, we will decline, because we are broken and cannot be fixed." If they did tell them that and 1538 picked them anyway that was a great risk they took. If they weren't told that and every other alliance captain was, that is not GP in my book. Also for a mentor to directly say they only wanted to be with the number 1 alliance is just not ok.

I would be interested to hear what 217 has to say. Whether or not that was an entire teams strategic decision or just a few students and mentors that decided to do it.

[Jaxom]

I was going to write a nice, reasoned, long (there's no way to be concise AND complete about this one) post to this, and after starting the first couple of paragraphs decided not to. It's just not worth it trying to convince anyone of anything, and it's not going to change what happened. I do think I still want to say three things, without long explanation, and leave it at that:
* None of us have perfect information about this or any other situation. I know I don't, and I talked to a bunch of folks. 1538 did what alliance captains have to do; they made a hard decision, based on factors they thought were important.
* None of us can say what would have happened had things been done differently. Maybe if team 10,327 had been picked we would have lost in the quarterfinals instead. Or won Einstein. Or caused the universe to implode due to a rip in the fabric of space-time.
* You probably should have taken a lot of deep breaths before starting this thread, and I probably should have taken more than the two that I did before posting this.

In the end, what happened happened, and a very deserving alliance went from Newton to Einstein. Congratulations to 303, 3476, and 1640. And to all but THREE teams (congrats to them, too) in all of FRC: I guess we all need to just go out & make next year different, right? Or maybe I should say "...make next year different, eh?"

[Paul Copioli]

Let me set the record straight. I never ever told any of the teams that we would decline. As a matter of fact, I told every team in the top 15 that we would accept if they picked us but I was certain we could not be repaired. I told the exact same thing to every team including 1538. As a matter of fact, I told them 3 times that we were unable to play.

During alliance selection I was on Galileo watching that selection because I knew we would not be picked based on our robot status.

In sure the 1538 mentors i told will corroborate my story. I am 100% positive I told no team that we would decline. Making claims that I said anything otherwise is just false.

I was trying to make sure all of the teams in the top 8 knew our status. 1538 had the exact same information everyone else had prior to alliance selection. I believe they took a huge risk picking us.

Our auton didn't fire two times during eliminations which was exactly one of the problems we were having when I approached every team in the top 15.

To be clear, I was the mentor that approached every team in the top 15. You can blame me and solely me if you think you were misled. My team tried everything they could to get the robot working.

Most of our team had no idea what was going on with the robot so I have no idea who you talked to after alliance selection but it wasn't me.

Lastly, you do not need to be anonymous. I would be more than happy to discuss the exact circumstances regarding the Newton alliance selection. You have every right to be upset but you have no right to take anonymous shots at my team. You can take shots at me, but you better stand up and be a man (or woman) about it. As you probably know, because you are the one who got Frank Merrick involved, I was approached by Frank and Aiden regarding the situation. They interviewed me and the mentors from 1538 and were completely satisfied with our explanation.

In any case, this is my first and last response to this thread.

Paul

[Jon Stratis]

Before I add to the discussion, I want to add a disclaimer: I have not formed any personal opinion on this situation. My team wasn't there, although I was down there volunteering in Newton, so I got to know many of the teams and individuals there.

After alliance selection, while we were finishing re-inspecting robots, I was approached by 4 separate individuals from 4 different Newton teams. And inspector I know on Galileo was approached by two teams as well. They all had the same story to tell: they were told the robot was broke and not to pick them. When they were then selected as the 16th pick, there was a HUGE feeling from those individuals and their teams that it was an extremely ungracious situation, and those individuals wanted to complain about it.

Personally, I would really appreciate a statement from 217 concerning the situation. Some effort should be made to explain it directly to those teams from their division, and smooth over any negative feelings. Something like this could fester and hurt a teams image, regardless if everyone really knows what happened or not.

Edit: looks like Paul chimed in while I was writing my post.

[AnonymousNewton]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Let me set the record straight. I never ever told any of the teams that we would decline. As a matter of fact, I told every team in the top 15 that we would accept if they picked us but I was certain we could not be repaired. I told the exact same thing to every team including 1538. As a matter of fact, I told them 3 times that we were unable to play.

During alliance selection I was on Galileo watching that selection because I knew we would not be picked based on our robot status.

In sure the 1538 mentors i told will corroborate my story. I am 100% positive I told no team that we would decline. Making claims that I said anything otherwise is just false.

I was trying to make sure all of the teams in the top 8 knew our status. 1538 had the exact same information everyone else had prior to alliance selection. I believe they took a huge risk picking us.

Our auton didn't fire two times during eliminations which was exactly one of the problems we were having when I approached every team in the top 15.

To be clear, I was the mentor that approached every team in the top 15. You can blame me and solely me if you think you were misled. My team tried everything they could to get the robot working.

Most of our team had no idea what was going on with the robot so I have no idea who you talked to after alliance selection but it wasn't me.

Lastly, you do not need to be anonymous. I would be more than happy to discuss the exact circumstances regarding the Newton alliance selection. You have every right to be upset but you have no right to take anonymous shots at my team. You can take shots at me, but you better stand up and be a man (or woman) about it. As you probably know, because you are the one who got Frank Merrick involved, I was approached by Frank and Aiden regarding the situation. They interviewed me and the mentors from 1538 and were completely satisfied with our explanation.

In any case, this is my first and last response to this thread.

Paul

Thank you for the explanation. I would like to say that I have no idea who Frank Merrick is and did not involve him unless he got involved by reading this post.

Unlike 2052 claimed, I can also confirm that our team was told 217 would accept (although I don't entirely understand the reasoning behind this).

Finally, I will remain anonymous because of the reasons stated previously.

[Adam Freeman]

I really appreciate Paul posting on this issue and setting the record straight right away.

As a friend, I'm concerned that I continued to perpetuate the rumors thought last night's mentor party. The rumors didn't seem right, but we kept hearing/repeating the same story. I should have just asked right away.

Paul / 217, I apologize for not help set the record straight.

Congrats on working hard to get the robot working and being division finalists.

[Jeff Waegelin]

I think that the parties involved have set the record straight, and there is no more need for discussion, especially based on anonymous accusations. This thread is now closed.