Ungracious professionalism at internationals?

[Grim Tuesday]

---Disclaimer---
I hold the Thunder Chickens in the highest regard and don't think anything malicious happened.
---Disclaimer---

I've read some of the really hateful and sarcastic posts, as well as Paul's explaining the situation.

The only question I have left is why, if 217 was so disabled that they were telling teams explicitly not to pick them, why then did they not decline the selection? What they did in the pits was tantamount to the same thing as declining during selections so if they were willing to essentially decline, why did they not actually? The assumed (assumptions make an $@#$@#$@# out of u and me) conclusion is that either of their two alliance partners had some inside knowledge that no one else in the division knew that led to these two picking them.

I think the most likely explanation is that they didn't think they would get their robot working and made some miraculous repairs, which coincided with the alliance captain either choosing foolishly or bravely. But it has to be admitted that it leaves some very interesting questions.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

---Disclaimer---

I hold the Thunder Chickens in the highest regard and don't think anything malicious happened.

---Disclaimer---

I've read some of the really hateful and sarcastic posts, as well as Paul's explaining the situation.

The only question I have left is why, if 217 was so disabled that they were telling teams explicitly not to pick them, why then did they not decline the selection? What they did in the pits was tantamount to the same thing as declining during selections so if they were willing to essentially decline, why did they not actually? The assumed (assumptions make an $@#$@#$@# out of u and me) conclusion is that either of their two alliance partners had some inside knowledge that no one else in the division knew that led to these two picking them.

I think the most likely explanation is that they didn't think they would get their robot working and made some miraculous repairs, which coincided with the alliance captain either choosing foolishly or bravely. But it has to be admitted that it leaves some very interesting questions.

As much as I hate to admit it, this very thought is also on my mind. I too hold 217 in high regard, but all these stories are disconcerting. :/ I hope Paul and others on 217 can look into the matter and see who, if anyone, was saying these things to teams.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

I too hold 217 in the highest regard and have personally never seen anything at a competition that would make me think differently.

That said, the one voice I would very much like to here regarding this matter (because I don't think anyone from this team has said anything yet pertaining to the subject) is that of team 1538, The Holy Cows; the team that actually drafted them. If anyone would know about how much 1538 actually knew about the Thunderchickens' damages, I'd be 1538 themselves.

<speculation> My initial guess is that when told the robot was irreparable, someone from from the 1538 camp went over and investigated exactly how bad the damages were and personally assessed the probability of a successful repair (I mean, that's what my team would do, and were not even close to Chairman's caliber). If anyone could fix said fallen robot in time for the playoffs, I think the current World Chairman's Award Winner might be on that short list. [sidenote: Congrats btw on said achievement]
That would personally give me the confidence to make such a risky selection.

Sadly, I did not personally see the match where said fall occurred, however I did see the last match where they sat dead in, and I hadn't the clue what was going on.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

That said, the one voice I would very much like to here regarding this matter (because I don't think anyone from this team has said anything yet pertaining to the subject) is that of team 1538, The Holy Cows; the team that actually drafted them. If anyone would know about how much 1538 actually knew about the Thunderchickens' damages, I'd be 1538 themselves.

Conner from the Holy Cows did post, in the thread Jeff linked to. I suggest people read that thread before posting in this one. Overlapping arguments are annoying.

If other teams ever face situations like this, I think what Joe said could be valid. Take the chance and pick the team. If you think you need them to win. If they are the ideal bot. You pick them, and you get their bot functional. Take the risk.

As Paul said in the other thread, if you have something to say, say it with a real account like the OP did. Do not hide under the veil of anonymity. People can not trust an anonymous source for information usually, and the person/team in question doesn't really have to answer.

That said, I hope whatever went on, if anything, can be resolved within the team. To the other captains; don't dwell on the issue, it won't change anything, and in the end if "ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."

[Kevin Sevcik]

Since clicking over to the other thread before lobbing base and offensive accusations seems to be too much trouble, I'll just copy two highly relevant posts over here:

Originally Posted by connor.worley

Let me tell it like it is: we knew they had a busted robot with strong potential. We thought we could fix their issues, and decided to go for it. Unfortunately, issues returned between the semis and the finals. Tough loss, but we appreciate their patience with us.

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Let me set the record straight. I never ever told any of the teams that we would decline. As a matter of fact, I told every team in the top 15 that we would accept if they picked us but I was certain we could not be repaired. I told the exact same thing to every team including 1538. As a matter of fact, I told them 3 times that we were unable to play.

During alliance selection I was on Galileo watching that selection because I knew we would not be picked based on our robot status.

In sure the 1538 mentors i told will corroborate my story. I am 100% positive I told no team that we would decline. Making claims that I said anything otherwise is just false.

I was trying to make sure all of the teams in the top 8 knew our status. 1538 had the exact same information everyone else had prior to alliance selection. I believe they took a huge risk picking us.

Our auton didn't fire two times during eliminations which was exactly one of the problems we were having when I approached every team in the top 15.

To be clear, I was the mentor that approached every team in the top 15. You can blame me and solely me if you think you were misled. My team tried everything they could to get the robot working.

Most of our team had no idea what was going on with the robot so I have no idea who you talked to after alliance selection but it wasn't me.

Lastly, you do not need to be anonymous. I would be more than happy to discuss the exact circumstances regarding the Newton alliance selection. You have every right to be upset but you have no right to take anonymous shots at my team. You can take shots at me, but you better stand up and be a man (or woman) about it. As you probably know, because you are the one who got Frank Merrick involved, I was approached by Frank and Aiden regarding the situation. They interviewed me and the mentors from 1538 and were completely satisfied with our explanation.

In any case, this is my first and last response to this thread.

Paul

Note that Paul said he wasn't commenting more in that thread. Chances are that goes for here as well. I won't blame connor at all if he doesn't want to bother wrestling this particular pig*.

I'd just like to point out that you're accusing the 2013 CCA winners and a former WFA (Paul Copioli) of pulling a ridiculous stunt that anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows is wrong. Do you really honestly think that the Thunderchickens want to win THAT badly? The explanation offered by Paul is more than adequate and is, frankly, something that happens a lot. My team was the beneficiary of a similar #1 pick in 2007. We weren't working a bit all Friday but pulled some magic that night and had a perfect double lift Saturday morning. We actually didn't bother telling anyone anything cause we were certain we wouldn't be picked, and 1114 snatched us up as a sleeper. I'd love to say we went on to win the regional, but we had some unrelated mental lapses that dropped us in the semis, but still. To anyone not paying attention, a completely busted robot magically works flawlessly come elims. The 217 situation was only a little more extreme in the timing of everything.

*Because when wrestling a pig, everyone gets muddy, but the pig likes it.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Since clicking over to the other thread before lobbing base and offensive accusations seems to be too much trouble, I'll just copy two highly relevant posts over here:

From the same thread, I want to point out the most unsettling post there (at least for me).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=22

Now, that post is from a valid account, a mentor, and someone who did not offer an angry post.

All that can be done at this point is to let 217 to worry about 217. As I said, I hope they do look into it on their own and can find out what was up. And I'll repeat, other captains should forget about the incident. Move on and have a fun offseason.

[Steve Kaneb]

Mr. Copioli made it clear in his post in the closed thread that he will not be addressing this issue further, and I won't speak for him.

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

Your team might make the decision that once broken, you'd decline any selection (which would likely be FRC190's decision under the circumstances). It's not unreasonable to assume that Paul and his team are full of pride for their machine and their abilities, and that they'd try their darndest to compete.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

This makes a lot more sense. Thanks for posting about this little conversation.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Siri

*Dude, I got to shake hands with Paul Copioli. Yeah, really.

Dude, I got Paul Copioli's signature AND a piece of advice. Yeah, really.

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

Mr. Copioli made it clear in his post in the closed thread that he will not be addressing this issue further, and I won't speak for him.

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

Your team might make the decision that once broken, you'd decline any selection (which would likely be FRC190's decision under the circumstances). It's not unreasonable to assume that Paul and his team are full of pride for their machine and their abilities, and that they'd try their darndest to compete.

I think this, as well as Mr. Copioli's response, about sums up the issue at hand. I would also like to remind people that 1538, having just won a CHAMPIONSHIP CHAIRMANS, would never engage in such deceitful tactics, and neither would 1986 Team Titanium (I am dear friends with them and they are a hard working, fix anything anytime for anyone team.) and 217 has been spoken for, so I see no need to speak on their behalf.

[connor.worley]

I have nothing else to add. To reiterate my earlier post, the pick offered both huge risk and reward. We were gutsy to go for it, and we ended up getting our butts kicked in the finals for it (no disrespect to 217).

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Conner from the Holy Cows did post, in the thread Jeff linked to. I suggest people read that thread before posting in this one. Overlapping arguments are annoying.
If they are the ideal bot. You pick them, and you get their bot functional. Take the risk.

Especially when you've already picked 1986 who had numerous mechanical issues over the course of champs, and got that robot back together after the gremlins had their way.
By that point, fixing 217's robot before eliminations was probably like business as usual for 1986.

[nicholsjj]

One thought that hasn't been said in these threads is that 1538 made an extremely risky pick with some very high level teams still on the board. 180(last years champion), 1985, and 2439 were all there. These three teams had all been major players in a regional championship and they were all working at full force. The fact that 1538 would pick a broken 217 bot over these three teams probably cost them a major shot at Einstein because as Connor has said 217 did rebreak during eliminations. The fact of the matter is that 217 told everyone that they had a major problem and the cows took a chance on it and it cost them. Does anyone from either 1538 and 1986 want to explain the thought process EDIT: (after rereading please know that this question didn't mean to sound this acusing: I just want to learn how elite level teams go through a tough decision like this) that went into the pick and if you also considered bringing 2439 in as a backup during finals? I think that would ease the minds of many people. I also think there was no "backroom" field playing going on I actually apuald 217 for being honest with the top 15 instead of telling teams "we are 100%" like most teams would do going into alliance selections. I truly believe that they didn't know if they could get their problems fixed.

[DampRobot]

While this is an important issue to discuss, accusing others of "Ungracious professionalism" is both cliché and rather inflammatory. Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to throw stones, as I've put my own foot in my mouth a large number of times, but while you have an important point to raise, I don't think that was to way to do it. GP is thrown around a lot now, usually in the context of "I'm more GP then you."

I agree that the situation seems a little fishy at first glance, but I'd be inclined to believe the respected mentors who gave their first hand accounts of their experiences.

[connor.worley]

They demonstrated some great defense and prevented a climber from reaching their pyramid in the quals. Combine that with FCS ability, and we thought that we would potentially be able to take on 1114, who we expected we would face if we won our division. We thought that between ourselves and 1986, we had a large enough lead in offensive strength over the rest of the bracket to pick up any slack in scoring if the FCS wasn't working 100%. We were proved wrong.

Edit: See also Jon's post.

[HayWire1569]

In response, my team is not at all bitter about this, in fact we're extremely ecstatic we made it to championships, let alone being an alliance captain. That was an amazing experience!!! We just found it suspicious when we were told try fell from the pyramid, and we hadn't seen tem climb, and were then picked by the #1 alliance. We are not making any accusations or trying to ruin the reputation of a team, just looking for a few answers.

Seriously though, championships was an incredible experience, thank you all so much!!!