Ungracious professionalism at internationals?

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Conner from the Holy Cows did post, in the thread Jeff linked to. I suggest people read that thread before posting in this one. Overlapping arguments are annoying.

Whoops. Didn't catch his post on my initial read through. Sorry about that.

Still, doesn't say a whole lot, but it does at least confirm my initial thoughts on the matter.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Since clicking over to the other thread before lobbing base and offensive accusations seems to be too much trouble, I'll just copy two highly relevant posts over here:

From the same thread, I want to point out the most unsettling post there (at least for me).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...7&postcount=22

Now, that post is from a valid account, a mentor, and someone who did not offer an angry post.

All that can be done at this point is to let 217 to worry about 217. As I said, I hope they do look into it on their own and can find out what was up. And I'll repeat, other captains should forget about the incident. Move on and have a fun offseason.

[connor.worley]

I have nothing else to add. To reiterate my earlier post, the pick offered both huge risk and reward. We were gutsy to go for it, and we ended up getting our butts kicked in the finals for it (no disrespect to 217).

[nicholsjj]

One thought that hasn't been said in these threads is that 1538 made an extremely risky pick with some very high level teams still on the board. 180(last years champion), 1985, and 2439 were all there. These three teams had all been major players in a regional championship and they were all working at full force. The fact that 1538 would pick a broken 217 bot over these three teams probably cost them a major shot at Einstein because as Connor has said 217 did rebreak during eliminations. The fact of the matter is that 217 told everyone that they had a major problem and the cows took a chance on it and it cost them. Does anyone from either 1538 and 1986 want to explain the thought process EDIT: (after rereading please know that this question didn't mean to sound this acusing: I just want to learn how elite level teams go through a tough decision like this) that went into the pick and if you also considered bringing 2439 in as a backup during finals? I think that would ease the minds of many people. I also think there was no "backroom" field playing going on I actually apuald 217 for being honest with the top 15 instead of telling teams "we are 100%" like most teams would do going into alliance selections. I truly believe that they didn't know if they could get their problems fixed.

[DampRobot]

While this is an important issue to discuss, accusing others of "Ungracious professionalism" is both cliché and rather inflammatory. Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to throw stones, as I've put my own foot in my mouth a large number of times, but while you have an important point to raise, I don't think that was to way to do it. GP is thrown around a lot now, usually in the context of "I'm more GP then you."

I agree that the situation seems a little fishy at first glance, but I'd be inclined to believe the respected mentors who gave their first hand accounts of their experiences.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by w1n5t0n

It is completely possible they did have an issue but, it does seem likely that teams were trying to bypass FIRST's system where lower teams can have a chance to compete.

I just want to say that I am totally in awe of 217 and 1538 and have been for years. I think Paul* was being completely (and brutally) honest when he said they were DOA ("automatic backup bot" was the term I got), and they did an awesome job getting 217 back in shape. I hope I get to see him and them at IRI again, and I need more time to gape in awe in 1538's pit and Chairman's. We know the fear of falling very well, and I have no idea how we might have pulled a fix like that off. Repairing something the President of VEX thinks is irreparable is no small feat. They did so well through quarters and semis that people who'd called it a ridiculous last pick before lunch were congratulating us on our finalist awards before finals even started. We had no idea what would happen, and we (1640) are still nobodies compared to both of them.


All that said, I'll just point out

#WinAnyway.

*Dude, I got to shake hands with Paul Copioli. Yeah, really.

[Steve Kaneb]

Mr. Copioli made it clear in his post in the closed thread that he will not be addressing this issue further, and I won't speak for him.

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

Your team might make the decision that once broken, you'd decline any selection (which would likely be FRC190's decision under the circumstances). It's not unreasonable to assume that Paul and his team are full of pride for their machine and their abilities, and that they'd try their darndest to compete.

[HayWire1569]

In response, my team is not at all bitter about this, in fact we're extremely ecstatic we made it to championships, let alone being an alliance captain. That was an amazing experience!!! We just found it suspicious when we were told try fell from the pyramid, and we hadn't seen tem climb, and were then picked by the #1 alliance. We are not making any accusations or trying to ruin the reputation of a team, just looking for a few answers.

Seriously though, championships was an incredible experience, thank you all so much!!!

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

This makes a lot more sense. Thanks for posting about this little conversation.

[connor.worley]

They demonstrated some great defense and prevented a climber from reaching their pyramid in the quals. Combine that with FCS ability, and we thought that we would potentially be able to take on 1114, who we expected we would face if we won our division. We thought that between ourselves and 1986, we had a large enough lead in offensive strength over the rest of the bracket to pick up any slack in scoring if the FCS wasn't working 100%. We were proved wrong.

Edit: See also Jon's post.

[CalTran]

Originally Posted by Siri

*Dude, I got to shake hands with Paul Copioli. Yeah, really.

Dude, I got Paul Copioli's signature AND a piece of advice. Yeah, really.

Originally Posted by Steve Kaneb

Mr. Copioli made it clear in his post in the closed thread that he will not be addressing this issue further, and I won't speak for him.

We were the 15th seed in the Newton division, and Paul Copioli came over to us while we were waiting in the practice goal queue to tell us that 217 had fallen off the pyramid, that they were broken, and to cross them off our pick list.

After we'd gotten back to our pit, I had the opportunity to talk to him further about both our efforts to climb, and specifically the problems that had plagued 217 all season. It was around this point that 217 had mostly vacated their pit, and Paul explained that even though he advocates a "never say die" attitude, it was about time to shut it down. He expressed to me that if they were picked, they'd do everything in their power to fix their robot and do what they could on the field.

Your team might make the decision that once broken, you'd decline any selection (which would likely be FRC190's decision under the circumstances). It's not unreasonable to assume that Paul and his team are full of pride for their machine and their abilities, and that they'd try their darndest to compete.

I think this, as well as Mr. Copioli's response, about sums up the issue at hand. I would also like to remind people that 1538, having just won a CHAMPIONSHIP CHAIRMANS, would never engage in such deceitful tactics, and neither would 1986 Team Titanium (I am dear friends with them and they are a hard working, fix anything anytime for anyone team.) and 217 has been spoken for, so I see no need to speak on their behalf.

[Jon Jack]

Paul told us that they were broke several times over the course of Saturday morning. In their last match Saturday morning they did look broke. They didn't make a single shot during the match, including auto and they were barely driving. If I remember correctly, they never moved more than 1-2 feet from the pyramid. Clearly, something was wrong. After the match we discussed taking 217 off of our pick list. We had some back and fourth as to where 217 should be on our pick list. In the end they ended up 6th on our list of second round picks. However, the 5 teams ahead of them were taken in the first or second round.

In the end, we rolled the dice with 217 with the knowledge that they were broke. It was a high risk, high reward pick on our part. We would either get them in some state of repair and get a great pick or fail to and struggle along during the elimination tournament. I'm not going to get into numbers and specifics as it's late and irrelevant to this thread. However, we felt that 217 could play a specific role between us and 1986. Another thing we took into account was Paul's coaching ability, lets face it - there's something to be said for 2 state championships, 6 Einstein appearances, 2 world championships, 1 championship finalist and countless regional wins. Some people have a knack for winning, Paul is one of them. With this in mind, we rolled the dice and made the pick.

After alliance selections, I went straight to 217's pit and had a colorful conversation with Paul about how they were broke and how dumb we were for picking them. I told him to get his pit crew to their pit so we could figure out what needed to be fixed and fix it. I also brought in kids from our pit crew to help assist in repairs. It was an all hands on deck situation. Some may say this was a dumb move on our part, but we looked at who the back up robot (2439) would be and felt comfortable in being able to work well with them in the event that we were unable to repair 217. Having 2439 as the backup robot was an insurance policy that eased our mind about picking 217.

Throughout the elims 217 was plagued with issues. In some matches, they didn't shoot everything in auto, in some matches they didn't shoot anything in auto. In some matches their full court never worked consistently. In fact, we even had to call a timeout between our two semi-final matches to allow us more time to repair some electrical issues they were having.

I hope this helps clarify things,
Jon

[HayWire1569]

Again, I would like to say we're not making accusations, we just wanted answers. I personally have known the Holy Cows since my freshman year when we meant up at the first ever Utah Regional. I have talked with them frequently since then, and have been friends with many team members as well. Team Titanium, 1986, is my all time favorite FRC team, ask any member of our team and they'll tell you how I won't ever shut up about how incredible they are to watch. 217 has been amazing to watch throughout the years as well, but until championships I had no personal experience with them, however talking with their drivers and coach, they were and are an extremely nice team to work with.

That being said, I know I personally am satisfied, as is the rest of the team, with the answers that have been provided. We meant no disrespect toward any of these three incredible teams. Thank you for your answers and explanations everyone, and congratulations to The Holy Cows for their Chairman's win!!!

[Akash Rastogi]

Holy cow, did we just resolve something on CD with a sense of civility? Thanks mods for letting this one play out.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

Holy cow, did we just resolve something on CD with a sense of civility? Thanks mods for letting this one play out.

I know right! Most of these discussions just end with people agreeing to disagree too...