Ungracious professionalism at internationals?

[HayWire1569]

Also our team takes no responsibility for the original thread

[nicholsjj]

Well when you are talking about a HOF team and a Team being lead by a National Woodie Flowers Award Winner and also the Elite level team from Missouri(I'm so glad the rest of First now realizes the level of Team 1986 past just being the titanium standard of Missouri ) you would hope that people wouldn't have reacted so negative at first. A huge shout out to these well deserving teams for handling the questions from everyone with an extreme amount of Gracious Professionalism and Congrats on the 2 World Awards that this alliance had.

[jspatz1]

I certainly don't wish to perptuate this tread any further, but since some have speculated on the role of 1986 in the story I will add just one post with this information:

1986 was not privy to 1538's plans or reasoning before they made their selection decisions. They informed us just shortly before alliance picks that we would be their first selection.

1538 did share with us that although 217 was broken, they intended to take the risk that they could be fixed, and hoped to select them as a 2nd pick if they were still available. They considered it a high risk / high reward gamble. As the captain this was their perogative and we did not question it. Our assignement was to do what we do and score lots of points, to buy more time by helping win matches.

Between the time of alliance picks and the beginning of eliminations, 217's pit was an intense whirlwind of repair work. Their mentors and students worked as you would expect a team of their caliber and experience to work, repairing one sub-system at a time. They worked with 1538 sharing parts and resources. Paul gave us periodic updates on what was fixed, what was still broken, and what was unknown. They considered the available time to be not only that before elim matches began, but also the time between matches, and they hoped to keep working and improving as eliminations progressed.

Anyone who suspects a deception need only look at the outcome. Although 217 was able to get most systems working intitially, problems returned and they were plagued with issues as the matches progressed. Among other problems, the drivetrain itself was not performing due to the overall damaged condition of the robot.

1538 decided to take a championship-sized gamble, but it did not pay off this time. The story is as simple as that.

[mitchKarch]

I think that this actually shows more gracious professionalism in FIRST than ungracious professionalism.

Like 217, team 4 was in a similar situation in our Inland Empire Regional. We could not figure out how to get a good intake system to work and if you watch the game replays, a good portion of them are us attempting to feed Frisbees into various intake systems. We were pretty much useless even though our other systems worked well (shooter, drivebase, hanging).

When most teams asked us how we were doing, we told them that we really wanted to get our intake down because we knew that we could do full court shooting if we could get it working. One of the teams which had been seeded, 1323 MadTown Robotics, saw this and quickly sent over several members to help us out. They knew exactly what needed to be done and how to do it.
Within an hour, we had a consistent intake system which allowed for us to shoot Frisbees.

Although it was too little too late for team 4 as an alliance option, we really can't thank RC and the MadTown crew enough for the help that they gave.

I see 217 in a similar situation. As it was pointed out several posts ago by Jon Jack from 1538, it was a gamble for them to pick 217 but they did everything in their power to fix that robot.

In 2006, team 4 did not receive our robot for GTR, but so many teams (including 217) made it their duty to come out and help us build a robot (which was famously called "One-day Wonder"). I think that gracious professionalism in FIRST is more about the community and how in a time of need, can make things work out.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Does anyone have a recoding of the match 217 fell in? I've seen a bunch of falls that had little or no impact on the robot performance, and then I've seen 1023's fall that damaged pretty much everything, and I'm just curious as to what this particular fall looked like, considering the effect it had.

[greasemonkey]

maybe they just fixed and had favorable qualities

[bardd]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

The only question I have left is why, if 217 was so disabled that they were telling teams explicitly not to pick them, why then did they not decline the selection?

While I think declining would've been the right thing to do, I don't hold accepting against 217. On the contrary, I would've done the same.

After nearly five months of effort, and hard work, you get an opportunity to play in division elims. Elims! It's as close as you could reach to winning as you could at that point. Imagine the feeling of elation the team members must have felt (maybe you experienced it). Imagine the joy of knowing your intense hard work, long periods of having little sleep, maybe even skipping meals, and not getting to see your friends and family almost at all. I would've been very happy. As the team's representative, would you be able to decline the invitation, end your team's season, and take away that joy? I wouldn't. Even though declining would've been the fair thing to do, towards teams 1538 and 1986 who might have been able to choose an alliance partner that is fully functioning (I am deliberately avoiding stating that was the case since I don't know the details behind this), but I can't see how 217's could look his team members in the eye, having declined, ending their season and preventing them the possibility of getting to Einstein.

Also, Paul Copioli, in the post linked by Jeff in the thread's comment, said he personally told all the people he talked to that if they pick 217, they will accept.


To the OP: I understand that you might be frustrated or angry by this, but I recommend forgetting this and moving on. Being mad about it will only hurt you in the long run. I know, I've been there.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

Does anyone have a recording of the match 217 fell in?

I heard the incident occurred on the practice field.

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

As much as I hate to admit it, this very thought is also on my mind. I too hold 217 in high regard, but all these stories are disconcerting. :/ I hope Paul and others on 217 can look into the matter and see who, if anyone, was saying these things to teams.

So, I'm going to preface this with, "I don't know Paul Copioli or 217 as well as I would like". I know they are a fantastic team, and I have had the honor of working with them years ago (you'll recall their last Finger Lakes visit in 2011 when I was with 1126, right Simon?). This is the impression I've gotten from them:

At heart, 217 is a competitive team. They take their robot's on-field performance very seriously. They take the time to ensure that their robot will live up to the legacy of domination they set for themselves from 2006-2011 where they were one of the most dominant teams in the world. One of 67's goals (as I've read in their design logs) is to win the world championships. I'd bet 217 sets forth a similar goal. Competing at a high level in their division, making it to Einstein... These are all goals 217 holds very seriously. To that end, they would never decline an alliance offer from a team, unless they were in a position to put their own alliance together (Newton 2011).

They did the right thing by telling teams their issues. It is a noble thing that many teams in FIRST don't do. They made sure every team knew that by picking them, it's an likely possibility that they would be sitting on-field with a dead robot. I'm sure that is exactly what Paul expected would happen, were they picked. But they wouldn't decline, because declining would mean missing out on a shot at Einstein that they didn't even have a chance to compete for last year. So Paul made sure that every team knew the risks, and let every other team decide their fate after that. It just so happened that the teams gutsy enough to try them made up the #1 seeded alliance. I don't think Paul or 217 would have intentionally tried to rig the system just to get a shot at Einstein. From what I've gathered from working with Paul and 217, they would much prefer to let their robot handle these things for them, not behind-the-scenes, cloak and dagger efforts.

[Jon Stratis]

Personally, I am completely satisfied with the information we've gotten from the teams on that alliance. I just hope the message gets out to all of the top teams from the division, so no one dwells on it unnecessarily.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I heard the incident occurred on the practice field.

That is what Paul told us when he came over to discuss how badly the robot had been broken.

[EricLeifermann]

I think this incident is really getting under peoples skin(it did to me, though I let it go even before Paul's post in the previous thread), because it was Paul who went around and told all the teams that they were done. I think that if a different non well known mentor or a student from 217 went and told all the teams they were done, teams wouldn't have been as upset and "outraged" that this happened.

I've always had good interactions with 217, as well as Paul, and I can say that even though I was angry that it appeared that 217 had sandbagged their way into the #1 alliance. Paul came up to several members of my team after and he looked truly shocked and you could tell he was thinking that everyone thought that they had sandbagged the division.

Is it right to tell teams you are done and then accept an invitation to an alliance? If you were going to accept no matter what , why even take the time to tell teams you're broken?

These are questions that each team needs to ask themselves and live with the choices they make, and the reputation they earn through making those choices.

[Ryan Caldwell]

I'm amazed at how civil this thread has kept, kudos to you chief.

Robots break when they're driven hard, when they are driven to win.

I was able to speak with Paul immediately after the fall and assessment of damages. This was more than a 2 hour fix evident by the lack of full functionality in the elimination tournament. It's one thing not to be picked on the world championship stage, its another completely to decline when there is a possibility (no matter how slim) of getting things fixed and functioning.

I think Paul went above and beyond to talk to all 15 top teams and let them know what the odds were.

I think 1538 made a solid decision plus the first replacement bot was a good machine. Worst case you have world championship top 12 rank team as your third pick.

[chantal68]

I just have a couple of questions on this issue. As part of our team's scouting crew, I thought I was losing my mind when 217 came out in QFs and started shooting full court. "What!" I thought. "How did I miss THAT? I need to resign my post."

Then later someone told me that they had NOT been shooting full court all weekend...which is the correct answer? I totally missed their MO, or that their FCS was brand new?

Second, based on our scouting data (not my own personal skill), we did not see 217 as a viable pick option (no disrespect intended to 217). Therefore this makes me curious what data or skills other teams were noting that put 217 on the radar at all.

I ask these questions in the hopes of expanding our team's scouting ability because we are still very much learning. Thank you.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by chantal68

I just have a couple of questions on this issue. As part of our team's scouting crew, I thought I was losing my mind when 217 came out in QFs and started shooting full court. "What!" I thought. "How did I miss THAT? I need to resign my post."

Then later someone told me that they had NOT been shooting full court all weekend...which is the correct answer? I totally missed their MO, or that their FCS was brand new?

Brand new? No. I wasn't at the event and certainly did not watch every match that 217 played in, but I didn't see 217 using their full court shooting ability in the two or three qualification matches of theirs I saw on Newton. However, they had used it at all of their previous events, including as a key component of their winning strategy at Michigan State Championship (where they essentially played the same role they were playing for the #1 alliance on Newton). I assume their internal assessment was that they could score more points as a cycling robot than as a full court shooter, and opted to pursue that strategy during the qualification on Newton.