Saving Seats Epidemic

[Mike Marandola]

I think one possibility, specifically at internationals, would be for FIRST to reserve about 6 seats for each team towards the center of the field. The rest of the seats would be first come first serve. This way every team would have a good view of the field for scouting and such. Everyone is racing to get these center seats so I think every team should be given a certain number of them.

[Woolly]

If your average team needs ~10 people to scout, and there are 60 teams at a regional, what you end up with is 600 people redundantly recording what is mostly the same data.
If, somehow, everyone could agree on a scouting standard before they show up at the regional, you could have a representative from every team do all the scouting, and it could probably be uploaded to a neutral location on the web. Then, any fancy metrics/calculations that a team are doing just have to be set up to pull information from that neutral source.
Thus the need to sit in the bleachers and be together the whole event is alleviated for most teams.

Now, how do you get everyone to agree on a scouting standard? Well, for one the regional committee could hold a meeting 2 weeks before the event where everyone shares what data they need for scouting. It would not take much to hash out, as every year almost everyone's scouting sheets contain the same data.

[Ernst]

Hey guys. I'm from 1732. Those are our seat savers. Please let me explain.

I know they're bad. I know you don't like them. WE don't like them.

We simply didn't see any alternatives. As a team sending 84 (!) people down to St. Louis this year, we were unsure as to what our course of action should be. At the Wisconsin and Boilermaker Regionals we kept a general area of seating "reserved" by leaving piles of stuff there, rendering many seats useless, leading to people's things being stepped on, and, inevitable, losing things. We did, in the process, create a space for the scouts, spirit team, parents, mentors, and guests that came along. Unfortunately, we always had people sitting alone. We've struggled with seating for the past few years that I've been on the team, always ending up spread out. As a last resort, and after seeing many other teams to so, we opted for these felt, rubber band, and sticker combinations.

I never saw anyone who wasn't on our team shooed out of one of the marked seats. I remember, possibly the day that photo was taken, giving up entire rows because of the outrage over our seat savers. On Saturday we didn't bring them. We learned our lesson and sent half of the team to the venue really early.

I apologize.

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by Woolly

If your average team needs ~10 people to scout, and there are 60 teams at a regional, what you end up with is 600 people redundantly recording what is mostly the same data.
If, somehow, everyone could agree on a scouting standard before they show up at the regional, you could have a representative from every team do all the scouting, and it could probably be uploaded to a neutral location on the web. Then, any fancy metrics/calculations that a team are doing just have to be set up to pull information from that neutral source.
Thus the need to sit in the bleachers and be together the whole event is alleviated for most teams.

Now, how do you get everyone to agree on a scouting standard? Well, for one the regional committee could hold a meeting 2 weeks before the event where everyone shares what data they need for scouting. It would not take much to hash out, as every year almost everyone's scouting sheets contain the same data.

1306 is working on this

Anyone interested should check out this thread

We rolled out the CrowdScout system at the Wisconsin Regional, and in Curie Division this year, and it worked wonderfully, so we will definitely be continuing development of the system (streamlining data entry, making things easier for teams), and the organization around it (deciding on what data is needed, etc.)

[jessss]

At the Minnesota Regionals the first few rows of the center section of seats were reserved for teams. Each team got two seats for scouting, the team number was placed on each seat which was nice. It gave every team an opportunity to use the two seats to scout, record matches or even just sit and watch matches. It was nice because each team knew that they had these two seats and didn't have to worry about saving the seats. I know most teams need more than two scouters but I think it helped at our regionals.

[ttldomination]

Originally Posted by ZehP

Hey guys. I'm from 1732. Those are our seat savers. Please let me explain.

I know they're bad. I know you don't like them. WE don't like them.

We simply didn't see any alternatives. As a team sending 84 (!) people down to St. Louis this year, we were unsure as to what our course of action should be. At the Wisconsin and Boilermaker Regionals we kept a general area of seating "reserved" by leaving piles of stuff there, rendering many seats useless, leading to people's things being stepped on, and, inevitable, losing things. We did, in the process, create a space for the scouts, spirit team, parents, mentors, and guests that came along. Unfortunately, we always had people sitting alone. We've struggled with seating for the past few years that I've been on the team, always ending up spread out. As a last resort, and after seeing many other teams to so, we opted for these felt, rubber band, and sticker combinations.

I never saw anyone who wasn't on our team shooed out of one of the marked seats. I remember, possibly the day that photo was taken, giving up entire rows because of the outrage over our seat savers. On Saturday we didn't bring them. We learned our lesson and sent half of the team to the venue really early.

I apologize.

If you're bringing 84 people, then seat them in separate areas, seat them towards the rear or off to the side. Do you HONESTLY, expect to seat all 84 people in a prime, central location and then not expect to step on some toes?

- Sunny G.

[Woolly]

Originally Posted by CENTURION

1306 is working on this

Anyone interested should check out this thread

We rolled out the CrowdScout system at the Wisconsin Regional, and in Curie Division this year, and it worked wonderfully, so we will definitely be continuing development of the system (streamlining data entry, making things easier for teams), and the organization around it (deciding on what data is needed, etc.)

Right, now if only we could require every team to send 1 rep to scout, such that it becomes plainly obvious to teams where to get good scouting info, rather than showing up to alliance selections and just picking by rank/reputation/#of LEDs.

[Kevin Sevcik]

First off, I'd like to point out that any suggestions of "first-come-first-served buuuut {reserved scout/media area, 6 prime seats per team, current match cheering section, etc.}" is pretty much an argument for the status quo. Teams reserving a handful of seats for scout aren't the problem. Teams reserving 40+ seats with 3 people are the problem. No matter your exception, there will still be teams with 40+ people they want sitting together looking for seats in the first-come sections. Making exceptions for small amounts of people is just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

Crazy idea:
Most complaints seem to center around people having to sit "alone". Sitting "alone" in this case seems to mean sitting somewhere not surrounded by people you've been stuck working on a robot with 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks. Instead you're surrounded by people who've been stuck working on a robot for 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks.

Surely all of us FIRSTers have enough in common that we're never actually alone in the stands no matter who's sitting next to us. Maybe if more of us made a point of spreading out a bit more and getting a bit more comfortable with all the other similarly crazy people in the stands, there'd be less worry about having to reserve completely contiguous, uninterrupted blocks of 40+ seats.

In furtherance of this, I think I'll spend more time at my next regional actively sitting just a bit away from my team. Feel free to call me crazy now.

[dcarr]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

In furtherance of this, I think I'll spend more time at my next regional actively sitting just a bit away from my team. Feel free to call me crazy now.

As open minded as this is, it's not a way to build and share team spirit, to share the highs and lows with the people you've worked with, love, and care about. To me, a FIRST event wouldn't be the same without this.

Whatever changes are made to seating in the future, having teams be able to sit together, at least while their robot is on the field, is of utmost importance.

[CENTURION]

Originally Posted by Woolly

Right, now if only we could require every team to send 1 rep to scout, such that it becomes plainly obvious to teams where to get good scouting info, rather than showing up to alliance selections and just picking by rank/reputation/#of LEDs.

The end goal for the CrowdScout system is just that: Get every team at a regional involved. Now making it a requirement might be a bit harder

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

First off, I'd like to point out that any suggestions of "first-come-first-served buuuut {reserved scout/media area, 6 prime seats per team, current match cheering section, etc.}" is pretty much an argument for the status quo. Teams reserving a handful of seats for scout aren't the problem. Teams reserving 40+ seats with 3 people are the problem. No matter your exception, there will still be teams with 40+ people they want sitting together looking for seats in the first-come sections. Making exceptions for small amounts of people is just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.

Crazy idea:
Most complaints seem to center around people having to sit "alone". Sitting "alone" in this case seems to mean sitting somewhere not surrounded by people you've been stuck working on a robot with 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks. Instead you're surrounded by people who've been stuck working on a robot for 12 hours a day for the last 6 weeks.

Surely all of us FIRSTers have enough in common that we're never actually alone in the stands no matter who's sitting next to us. Maybe if more of us made a point of spreading out a bit more and getting a bit more comfortable with all the other similarly crazy people in the stands, there'd be less worry about having to reserve completely contiguous, uninterrupted blocks of 40+ seats.

In furtherance of this, I think I'll spend more time at my next regional actively sitting just a bit away from my team. Feel free to call me crazy now.

Okay, you're crazy, but you're my kind of crazy

I love hanging out with other teams, you can get into some very fun discussions.

[Woolly]

Also, if you're involved with the control system (Programming, Electronics) I find that it's actually great if you sit away from your scouts and sit in those wide-out seats that no one uses behind your team's driver station.
You'll be able to see exactly what your drivers are trying to do with your control system in a real match, instead of in a relaxed practice match, and probably be able to know if anything needs to be changed before you even hear their report when they get back to the pits.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by dcarr

As open minded as this is, it's not a way to build and share team spirit, to share the highs and lows with the people you've worked with, love, and care about. To me, a FIRST event wouldn't be the same without this.

Whatever changes are made to seating in the future, having teams be able to sit together, at least while their robot is on the field, is of utmost importance.

I'm not really advocating for everyone spreading out over the entire stadium. Just a relaxation of the requirement that the entire team has to all sit in one spot with no gaps whatsoever. Because everyone here knows that the only way that could happen is if everyone is assigned seats that have been mapped out in advance by the RD. If teams are more willing to co-mingle then thursday-friday-saturday morning becomes a lot easier because each team's footprint in the stands ebbs and flows as the matches come and go.

Originally Posted by Woolly

Also, if you're involved with the control system (Programming, Electronics) I find that it's actually great if you sit away from your scouts and sit in those wide-out seats that no one uses behind your team's driver station.
You'll be able to see exactly what your drivers are trying to do with your control system in a real match, instead of in a relaxed practice match, and probably be able to know if anything needs to be changed before you even hear their report when they get back to the pits.

We should lobby for a programmer observation zone near the field so we can hover over the drivers and they can hear the hair tearing when they forget that they have speed trim knobs that are probably why they're consistently shooting low all match.

[Tom Line]

I have to admit, I'm probably a seat-saver's worst nightmare.

I run back and forth from the pits to the stands to watch our matches and then help in the pits. As a result, I never go all the way up to where our kids and mentors sit. At champs, I routinely walked up to a row of seats along the rim (the single row up against the railing), MOVED people's stuff from the seats, and sat in them. I got a couple 'how dare you' looks, but no one got up the courage to say something.

Sorry, but if there isn't a body it in, then it's there to be used for someone else. If someone came back to sit, I'd move immediately. So far - it's never happened. Not once.

I suspect the problem is that people are usually too passive to say something. Come in. Sit where you can. If you see a team hoarding 4 rows when they only appear to need two, then simply go and talk to them. If they claim they are saving, quote the rule, and ask gently if they will please move their things so other people can have room to sit.

At that point, there is nothing more that you can do. That is the gracious and professional path, even if it is the hard one where you may find some push back.

[Jon Stratis]

Disclaimer: The first and only time I actually sat in the stands this year was during Einstein matches (and my seats were way off to one side... I watched the matches more on the big screens than I did the actual field)

Here's a crazy thought...

Teams save a ton of seats because, at certain times (like opening, closing, and awards ceremonies) all of the team is in the stands. At all other times, those teams need way fewer seats.

So... why don't those larger teams clear out a section of "their" seats after opening ceremonies (you know, the ones for the people who go down to drive, work on the robot, give VIP tours, talk with other teams, etc), and invite smaller teams who may not have gotten great seats to join them? Show a little GP with those seats that stay empty though most of the matches! When it comes time for the awards ceremony, why can't everyone work together and shuffle over to let teams expand to include all of their members? Why does GP exist in the pits and on the field, but not in the stands? Lets get everyone to stand up before ceremonies and spread out a little... call it FIRST's version of the 7th inning stretch.

Something tells me people don't get all this upset because they have a bad angle to see the video of some politician saying how great our program is... They get upset because they want a better angle to view the matches.

[LucasM]

Originally Posted by Carl C

FIRST needs to either allow seats to be reserved or implement a better system.

I think this is a great idea. It would help mitigate the "land rush" situation when the doors open.