Saving Seats Epidemic

[Siri]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

The $@#$@#$@#$@# thing about it, is that one team told me that they were trying to win the spirit award and if they were not together cheering, the judges would not know how much spirit they had.

It sounds like FIRST needs to redefine the spirit award to emphasize mingling with other teams and/or point out that teams who share seats and accommodate the public will have at least as strong a shot (if not much better).

I overheard more than a few aggressive confrontations outside the doors of Worlds when people tried to "cut" in line. It's reaching a level of self-centeredness that is really very difficult to hear. As a side note, some of the push may be relieved if the pits had a separate entrance.)Open the back doors and station all the Green Shirts there instead of at the hall entrance, and don't allow anyone to exit the pits for the stands for maybe 30min to avoid cutting.) There aren't anywhere near as many pit people waiting as stands guys, but it would still diminish the crush somewhat and would really make traffic flow at the stairs safer--no cross traffic.


I like the ideas on FIRST distributing seats, particularly requiring teams to partner with each other. Here's a comprehensive straw man proposal that incorporates a lot of what has been said:
1. When you register on TIMS, you indicate how many Prime Seat armbands (max can depend on the venue, maybe 3-6) your team would like. A certain number would be guaranteed and the rest would go via lottery. Enough would be reserved for VIPs, the public, tour groups, etc. This does require a TIMS update and several more volunteers.
3. You also indicate how many Standard Seats you want in say 3 groups (you could request #1=30, #2=20, #3=0, or 5/5/5, or 80/0/0, whatever). Depending on availability, these are assigned by lottery and may overlap with another team's requiring cooperation. Again, enforcement is a consideration. Perhaps undercover judges would be enough, though.
4. During elims, all Prime Seats are opened to VIPs and the general public, with the next best seats being divided amongst the 8 alliances.

[Bob Steele]

Having read through this entire thread... I have decided on a new approach for our team...

Next year we will have several students whose specific duties will be to help people find seats... Student Seating Ambassadors or something...

They will be stationed at critical points and will help people coming in to find seats.... We will have to train them.... help grandparents to find their kids teams... answer questions... etc...etc...They will NOT be SEAT POLICE but rather will act by example to help achieve a solution to the problem..
Our students/team members will also be instructed to make space for people coming in...ALL people...

So many people come wandering in and the last thing we want to happen is for them to get turned off... they don't know where to sit anyway...
Why not usher them to a team to "host" them and let them know what is going on? If approached in this way, any team should be willing to let them sit with them...

In this way, a team can talk about FIRST ... explain the game...
and help gain new friends for FIRST.... gain new supporters for their progam.

We are going to try this next year... and see if we can get more teams to do it... ASK people to sit with them.... make them part of the "family"

This could be a start....

Let me give you an example... we were at the Spokane event this year..a couple came up to us and students and mentors in our group talked to them about FIRST. It turned out that this couple was house-sitting in Spokane and were actually from our home area... They had sort of stumbled into the event and we talked like we always do..We like to talk about how FIRST has changed the culture in our school...

The other day I received a check in the mail from them... they wanted to let us know that they want to support the team...they liked what FIRST was doing......totally unsolicited... we weren't fundraising we were just talking (enthusiastically) about what FIRST meant to our team...

Just saying...

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Bob Steele

Having read through this entire thread... I have decided on a new approach for our team...

Next year we will have several students whose specific duties will be to help people find seats... Student Seating Ambassadors or something...

They will be stationed at critical points and will help people coming in to find seats.... We will have to train them.... help grandparents to find their kids teams... answer questions... etc...etc...They will NOT be SEAT POLICE but rather will act by example to help achieve a solution to the problem..
Our students/team members will also be instructed to make space for people coming in...ALL people...

So many people come wandering in and the last thing we want to happen is for them to get turned off... they don't know where to sit anyway...
Why not usher them to a team to "host" them and let them know what is going on? If approached in this way, any team should be willing to let them sit with them...

In this way, a team can talk about FIRST ... explain the game...
and help gain new friends for FIRST.... gain new supporters for their progam.

We are going to try this next year... and see if we can get more teams to do it... ASK people to sit with them.... make them part of the "family"

This could be a start....

Let me give you an example... we were at the Spokane event this year..a couple came up to us and students and mentors in our group talked to them about FIRST. It turned out that this couple was house-sitting in Spokane and were actually from our home area... They had sort of stumbled into the event and we talked like we always do..We like to talk about how FIRST has changed the culture in our school...

The other day I received a check in the mail from them... they wanted to let us know that they want to support the team...they liked what FIRST was doing......totally unsolicited... we weren't fundraising we were just talking (enthusiastically) about what FIRST meant to our team...

Just saying...

I never understood why teams want to drive away potential recruits to the cause. I know of nothing that sells FIRST better than a competition and when you see people who aren't involved in FIRST at the event and looking to engage us the dumbest and most selfish thing to do is to drive them away because you want your whole team to sit together. Let them sit with you and assimilate them. FIRST is contagious and resistance is futile.

[Aidan S.]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

Sorry, but that's not the solution. We have a problem of "tragedy of the commons" or "the rule of capture". Both are recognized by economists as a systemic failure that creates significant problems that must be addressed. Requiring early arrival, posting guards, etc. are all resource drains during a competition that is already grueling, especially for smaller teams or teams without the resources to bring their full team. Why do we want to drive off smaller, less wealthy teams? The point of FIRST is to spread the message about the importance of STEM education and the role of robotics competition in enhancing that.

A better solution is to 1) consider seat allocation formulas--as suggested elsewhere, FIRST knows how many are registered 2) distinguish seating between those that are necessary for team functioning, i.e., scouting and those that are not i.e., spirit. The latter group should be placed in the upper tiers to open up seating for 1) scouts and 2) the public on the last day. In addition, FIRST might consider moving the non-qualified teams into the upper seats during the elimination rounds.

This year, we were squeezed between two teams in the spirit competition for a day, and it made our scouting more difficult. The next day was better, but two other large teams still spilled into our small area. Let's try to make this more pleasant and not a battle for seating space every day.

One other note--some of us are still preparing to support our team after the competition day is over. I went to bed well after midnight both nights working on scouting and strategy. Requiring me and others working with me to get there by 7 am just to save a seat fails to recognize the importance of contributions being made by all team members.

I don't think it would be feasible to employ a lottery system to allocate seats, simply on the fact that a team's needs differ so greatly at a competition. These points have been brought up previously in the thread, but I wish to re-iterate them. Some teams bring 10 people to an event, some bring more than 100. How can we equally divide up seats when teams do not have equal needs?

In general, teams don't want to be split up at an event, hence the rush to grab seats at the beginning of the day. But I think most teams are successful in adhering to the rules that FIRST outlines for seating allocation. When we send a crew of students early to sit in the section we would like, we never stop other individuals form sitting there alongside us, rather we welcome them to join us. The main issue here is people not understanding the policy that FIRST has outlined.

The race for seats in the morning has become an aspect of the competition. On the final day of champs, I arose at 5am, after going to sleep the night before past midnight, to take a group of students to get in line at the front doors. We were one of the first teams in line at the doors when they opened. Our early crew of students is actually excited to get to the event before anyone else, and takes great pride when we are the first team there. Now, when the doors open, we calmly go to sit in the section we want, but by that point, the rest of the team has also arrived, albeit further down the line, and within a few short minutes, our entire group is sitting together, ready to take on another day of competition. The competition starts when the doors to the venue open, not when opening ceremonies start or the first match is played. In St. Louis, the doors opened at 7am, so that's when the entire team arrived.

Allocating an area for scouting is unfeasible simply because of the diversity of how teams scout. Some teams take 20+ students to scout an event, some take 2, some take none. Some scout by watching matches, some talk to teams in the pit, some do both. Since the amount and type of scouting a team does is so dependent on the team itself, I doubt that there is an accurate way to allocate the correct amount of seats at an event to accommodate everyone. At some events, 100 seats will be far too much, and at others, 100 seats won't accommodate more than 5 teams.

You bring up the topic of spirit as a non-necessity of team function. I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. I can only speak for experience from my own team, but for us, there is no distinction between spirit and scouting (or any other division for that matter). On the contrary, our scouts are probably the loudest supporters of our team when they are on the field. Our students take great pride in cheering on our drivers when they are in the midst of a match, and telling individuals sitting in a dedicated "scouting section" that they can't cheer on their team because it is distracting to the other scouts will only result in two outcomes: either the scouts will continue to cheer as they did before, ignoring the new rule, or they will simply choose not to sit in the "scouting section" and join the rest of their team.

Now, I do agree that there needs to be a solution for seating for the general public. I think that this can be achieved by roping off a section of seats for people who are unaffiliated with teams and just want to take in the action. It's generally pretty easy to tell who is on a team and who is a spectator, and this would be easy to enforce.

In short, I believe that we shouldn't allocate everyone the same seating space at events, because, since our needs as teams are so diverse, there is no way to make everyone happy with this type of system. The system we have now works, as long as everyone clearly understands what the rules are.

[Ryan Dognaux]

What it's like to try to find a seat at some FRC events: http://youtu.be/nKubwgJK8q8

But really, it's as easy as citing the manual and just sitting down in the seat. Ignore the people yelling at you about how they're trying to save three seats for every one person on their team and they'll go away. FIRST come, FIRST serve

[IKE]

What if they did a silent auction for getting position in line? Highest bid gets first spot in line, and so on... Doors open at 7 for highest bidder. That team is given a 10 second head-start before the next highest bidder gets to go.

Bids must be submitted by the night before via a certified cashiers check. All procedes are divided to the Dean's List finalist scholarship (or other charity). If teams do not submit a bid, then they are in with general admission that starts after the final bidding team.

This would put a real tangible value on how much teams want good seats other than waking up at 3 AM to stand in front of a door that will open at 7am... Or... (think black friday madness).

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

...Nationals...

What is it going to take to get people to stop calling it that? It's almost as irritating as hearing Will.I.Am constantly refer to "US FIRST" (sure, that's an acronym for the official name of the organization -- the United States Foundation for Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology -- but the de facto name is just FIRST).

Originally Posted by MrJohnston

The $@#$@#$@#$@# thing about it, is that one team told me that they were trying to win the spirit award and if they were not together cheering, the judges would not know how much spirit they had.

"The Team Spirit Award celebrates extraordinary enthusiasm and spirit through exceptional partnership and teamwork furthering the objectives of FIRST." It really isn't about standing together as a single team and cheering.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

"The Team Spirit Award celebrates extraordinary enthusiasm and spirit through exceptional partnership and teamwork furthering the objectives of FIRST." It really isn't about standing together as a single team and cheering.

There's a widespread interpretation (including, apparently, among some judges) that it is, though. Although by some of the award descriptions I heard this year, other judges are treating it as the EI runner-up award (would that make it the Chairman's second runner-up award?), so no one really knows...

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by IKE

What if they did a silent auction for getting position in line? Highest bid gets first spot in line, and so on... Doors open at 7 for highest bidder. That team is given a 10 second head-start before the next highest bidder gets to go.

Bids must be submitted by the night before via a certified cashiers check. All procedes are divided to the Dean's List finalist scholarship (or other charity). If teams do not submit a bid, then they are in with general admission that starts after the final bidding team.

This would put a real tangible value on how much teams want good seats other than waking up at 3 AM to stand in front of a door that will open at 7am... Or... (think black friday madness).

I'm trying to figure out if this is the worst idea ever posted on CD or brilliant satire.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I'm trying to figure out if this is the worst idea ever posted on CD or brilliant satire.

Apparently the worst idea ever as I am interested in a serious discussion of it. Mind you you are not buying seats but just a position in the line to get them. All proceeds go to charity.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by IKE

Apparently the worst idea ever as I am interested in a serious discussion of it. Mind you you are not buying seats but just a position in the line to get them. All proceeds go to charity.

Really? OK, let me count the ways:

- The general idea that teams with more money will end up with better
- Encouraging a sense of ownership over seats even worse than already exists (good luck if you're a spectator!)
- Trying to put every team attending champs (or even a significant number) in "line"
- Once teams "get" their seats, are they that team's forever? Surely not...
Finally, and most importantly...
- You're basically asking teams to stampede. The question is not if there will be injuries, but how many.

[IKE]

How is the stampede different than now? In my scenario those that pay the most get a head start ( say 10 to 15 seconds over the next team. Yes whoever pays the most gets first choice. Yes they will likely feel entitled but that already happens.

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by IKE

What if they did a silent auction for getting position in line? Highest bid gets first spot in line, and so on... Doors open at 7 for highest bidder. That team is given a 10 second head-start before the next highest bidder gets to go.

Bids must be submitted by the night before via a certified cashiers check. All procedes are divided to the Dean's List finalist scholarship (or other charity). If teams do not submit a bid, then they are in with general admission that starts after the final bidding team.

This would put a real tangible value on how much teams want good seats other than waking up at 3 AM to stand in front of a door that will open at 7am... Or... (think black friday madness).

But that would give an unfair advantage to the rich teams.

Oh wait, wrong thread

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Aidan S.

I don't think it would be feasible to employ a lottery system to allocate seats, simply on the fact that a team's needs differ so greatly at a competition...Allocating an area for scouting is unfeasible simply because of the diversity of how teams scout. Some teams take 20+ students to scout an event, some take 2, some take none. Some scout by watching matches, some talk to teams in the pit, some do both. Since the amount and type of scouting a team does is so dependent on the team itself, I doubt that there is an accurate way to allocate the correct amount of seats at an event to accommodate everyone...

Having a lottery and allocating the identical seating space to teams are not the same thing. If teams indicate how many they'd like to bid for, events can guarantee a minimum (3-6) and randomly assign the rest to interested teams. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it's certainly doable.


I doubt FIRST would ban cheering from any prime/scout designated seating spots. Maybe ban standing and cheering, and if scouts would like to they're free to sit in the normal seats.

Originally Posted by Aidan S.

In St. Louis, the doors opened at 7am, so that's when the entire team arrived.

Doesn't arriving at 7am put most of your team behind several hundred people?

[Aidan S.]

Originally Posted by Siri

Doesn't arriving at 7am put most of your team behind several hundred people?

What I meant by this is that we send a smaller group (say a dozen) students early (usually around 6am) to get in line and participate in the "race" so to speak, but the remainder of the team still arrives before the doors open. So there is a small group to stake out the ideal section, and when they find one, the entire team will be there to join them and sit there and get started on the day's activities. This allows the students to rotate duty in the early crew.