The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'

[JB987]

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Our team as a whole took 2 weeks off total before worlds, but we'll send people home or tell them not to come if it's starting to visibly wear them--everyone individually has had much longer off. Additionally, 7 of those 14 days were the first Tuesdays and Fridays of January. If build season was longer this schedule would last longer, because we'd make it that way. We've gained a very firm understanding of what happens if we work our students and mentors too hard for too long: the end product (the robot, team and inspiration) gets worse, not better.

Do other teams not experience this? I would think they do, given that we're talking about burnout. Will "everyone" really try to go full out for 4 months? Why? There are much, much better ways to "keep up with the Jones'" that don't risk harming our end goal. We've already learned HOT meets less often than most of us do in the current build season. If I recall, 1114's mentors are in mostly just on weekends. Yes, a unbagged season will require more self-control, but I don't think I buy the argument that competition will force teams to burn themselves out, if only because it should be a foreseeable situation (is it not? why not?) and has a negative impact on competitiveness.

[Tetraman]

Originally Posted by Siri

Will "everyone" really try to go full out for 4 months? Why? There are much, much better ways to "keep up with the Jones'" that don't risk harming our end goal.

Teams/mentors/students currently burn themselves out going full out for 6.5 weeks to keep up the the jones... so Yes. Yes there will be teams that do this. Yes there will be teams with students and mentors who give up day and night to build a competitive robot over 4 months.

Originally Posted by Siri

... I don't think I buy the argument that competition will force teams to burn themselves out, if only because it should be a foreseeable situation (is it not? why not?) and has a negative impact on competitiveness.

Why not? Because it's apparently a problem now at 6 weeks of time. Why would it be 'solved' if we go to 8 weeks, or 12 weeks?

So X number of teams/mentors/students have the wrong idea about meeting times and schedules? Yes, yes they do, my own included. Is that a problem for those individual teams to solve, or a problem for FIRST to solve? I don't know, but it needs to be solved, and an extension of time to build will only increase the problem.

[JB987]

An unresolved question seems to be whether or not burn out is the result of total hours spent working on robots over +/- 4 months or compression of hours forced into a 6.5 week primary build period that for many of us includes production of a practice robot as well. Sure, some teams will work to fill any extra hours made available if more open bag time is allowed (or the bag is eliminated)...but that will be their choice. Some teams like ours (having learned the hard way in 2010) will chose a work schedule that lessens the likelihood of burnout. Nobody is forcing a team to work for X amount of hours currently or in alternative scenarios previously discussed. Each team needs to determine what works best for them as things currently stand and would need to do the same should any aforementioned possible changes occur.
I would like to see choice opportunities expanded, not limited and would like to see more robot access opportunity equivalence between district and regional bound teams as well. My inflated 2 cents... and I am not speaking on behalf of our team (not all 987 mentors are on the same page regarding this issue ).

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by JB987

An unresolved question seems to be whether or not burn out is the result of total hours spent working on robots over +/- 4 months or compression of hours forced into a 6.5 week primary build period that for many of us includes production of a practice robot as well.

For me, certainly the latter.

[DampRobot]

This thread seems to involve three separate questions:

• Would expanding the build season add or reduce the number of hours a team works?
• Is the 30 lb witholding alowance too much, and if so, how is it best reduced?
• Does robot work always expand to fill all available time?

I'm not ready to add my own opinion quite yet, but would like to remind posters that they are likely above average in the FRC community and that the majority of teams do not build a practice bot.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

This thread seems to involve three separate questions:

• Would expanding the build season add or reduce the number of hours a team works?
• Is the 30 lb witholding alowance too much, and if so, how is it best reduced?
• Does robot work always expand to fill all available time?

I'm not ready to add my own opinion quite yet, but would like to remind posters that they are likely above average in the FRC community and that the majority of teams do not build a practice bot.

1. If greater pre event access to robots was allowed you may not need much withholding
2.Possibly add hours, unlikely to reduce hours worked and for some, total hours may stay the same but spread out
3. It doesn't for my team anymore

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Why not? Because it's apparently a problem now at 6 weeks of time. Why would it be 'solved' if we go to 8 weeks, or 12 weeks?

So X number of teams/mentors/students have the wrong idea about meeting times and schedules? Yes, yes they do, my own included. Is that a problem for those individual teams to solve, or a problem for FIRST to solve? I don't know, but it needs to be solved, and an extension of time to build will only increase the problem.

So how do we fix it? I think we're on the same page that the burnout itself is the problem (despite disagreeing on whether a longer season would increase or decrease it).

Why is it that some of our own are working themselves to the point of diminishing returns, and how can we avoid/help this? For those of us that have started to avoid this, how and why? (For myself--I used to make myself sick in build, almost put myself in the hospital once--I think I just slowly learned that missing one night now is better than 4 later, or than screwing up something that costs 6.)

For myself, I don't agree with your final statement about a longer season making it worse--if the season is significantly longer. A week longer and I agree, I'd probably burn myself out the first year from not pacing correctly. But twice as long? If I look at our VEX teams or other analogs, I just don't see it happening. They tend to spread out and take it easier--sometimes too easy! So the end cram might be rougher the first year, but the season average less stressful. I don't have a method of proving it either way, though, so I suppose that pushes for the status quo until further evidence emerges.

---
As for how to deal with deadlines, I'd say learning how to deal with long deadlines is just as important as learning short ones--both being critical.

Students: yeah, I didn't know how to stop as a student either (see above)--that's what mentors are for. "Go sit down, call your mom, go home, and go to sleep." And to be fair, given the types of people that register on CD, it's no surprise there are more former students than current ones--you spend a lot longer as the former.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

+1 to this! We take off every Sunday to give our students and mentors a day of rest. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

I totally get that teams that currently iterate within the 30lb withholding allowance/practice robot would be less "burned out" if they only had to iterate/build one robot. 1678 is a perfect example, they started out with a completely different robot then when they finished. After Madera, they designed a new shooter inspired by 973's incredible design, and slapped that on with the 30 lbs at Davis. Then, between Davis and Champs, they built a more effective intake based on 254's effective pickup system.

Team's like these don't stop working, and it seems like the bag becomes more of a formality then anything else.

I like the idea of having more time to help other teams too, especially rookies. A few extra weekends with the robot could mean more opportunities for effective outreach.

Question: Would teams build a practice bot if there was no bag and tag?

Great discussion for sure, it's hard to image FRC without the 6.5 week "build season", but I'm trying to keep an open mind!

-Mike

[Pat Fairbank]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Question: Would teams build a practice bot if there was no bag and tag?

Probably. Our practice robot this year fired thousands of discs, suffered numerous collisions with field elements while driven by a certain other programming mentor, survived a 63" fall from the pyramid, and got all sorts of scratches on the powdercoat and polycarb. We wouldn't want to compete with a worn-out robot.

That said, having unlimited access to both robots would do a lot to decrease team stress around those epic Thursday morning rebuilds at competitions and the worry about whether they will perform the same.

[waialua359]

We start every season with at least 1 day (Sundays) off.
Then after a couple of weeks, we find ourselves behind schedule again and spending more and more longer hours per day, seven days a week.
I'm pretty sure our scenario is similar to others.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by waialua359

We start every season with at least 1 day (Sundays) off.
Then after a couple of weeks, we find ourselves behind schedule again and spending more and more longer hours per day, seven days a week.
I'm pretty sure our scenario is similar to others.

Probably because you just have to powder coat your bot...

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by JB987

Probably because you just have to powder coat your bot...

Ever since we started doing it in 2008, there is a correlation between powdercoating and the # of Motorola Quality awards we got.
Next year, we hope that modulating our robot frame and other functional parts via our waterjet will cut down on the build time somewhat and help us build 2 bots for the very first time.

[Jaxom]

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank

Probably. Our practice robot this year fired thousands of discs, suffered numerous collisions with field elements while driven by a certain other programming mentor, survived a 63" fall from the pyramid, and got all sorts of scratches on the powdercoat and polycarb. We wouldn't want to compete with a worn-out robot.

You powdercoat your practice bot?!?!?!? THAT is either "attention to detail" or "<insert sarcastic, non-PC comment here>".

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

+1. It's a sprint but teams have to pace themselves.