The 6 Week Build Season and 'Mentor Burnout'

[Tetraman]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

If that were true every single team would meet 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. ... Giving more team would allow for more reasonable schedules a few more Saturday build/practice sessions that will help inspire students.

The biggest reason for burnout (at least discussed in this thread) is the amount of time required by mentors/coaches. You are suggesting that adding additional time to build season will decrease mentor/coach burnout?

And how can an extra saturday inspire a student? Mentorship inspires a student and as this thread has proven there is a big issue with mentor burnout because there is too big of an attendance requirement. I stated that "If you give all teams additional time, the students and mentorship are going to do everything in their power to utilize that extra time by default rather than spending the extra time to relax their schedule." I'm suggesting that giving additional time to teams isn't going to fix the 'burnout' problem because those additional days and times will be used the same way their current days and times are. None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary.

Additional time isn't going to make students 'stronger' if the mentors get 'weaker'.

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

How would you account for teams with more people. It's never going to be fair and we shouldn't try to make it fair.

Actually that would be fine by me. The goal in my scenario is to find what kinds of team advantages would be fair and I think that team size is a fair advantage. If you can recruit them, maintain them, and provide for them, why wouldn't team size be an allowed advantage? I don't think having 200 active students and 40 active mentors/coaches/parents is a good team size at all, but if a team can utilize it then have at it. Team Size works itself out based on what teams can manage for themselves and its not that team size equates to more victories.

[HumblePie]

Excellent discussion here. I tend to side with the folks who believe that the work will expand to fill the available space. My son was a senior on the team, and I wanted very much for our team to make our first trip to CMP. Some might say (have said) I was obsessive. We finished the shooter just prior to our Week 1 competition, bringing in 28 pounds withholding, and tweaked the shooter on the practice bot between week 1 and 3. Well, it worked, resulting in a Week 3 win at Peachtree (Thanks 4026, 4080), but feeding issues remained. So, then we embarked on a completely new shooter for CMP. That meant a solid 4 months of FRC. Had a great time at CMP, and would love to go back. Question is, can my home life handle this level of commitment?

If the withholding allowance were held to a more modest 10 pounds, perhaps it would have saved us from ourselves (or the team from ME). We could still "tweak" some subsystems (like feeding), but the stretch goal of an entire new shooter would be out of reach. BTW, the latest shooter revision was easier to feed, but less consistent shooting, so maybe we learned a lesson there?

On a slightly unrelated note, why does Bag Day have to be a Tuesday? If it's truly a six week build, make it on a Saturday. If not, just make it a full 7 week build and bag on a Saturday night. The students won't have school the next day, and the Mentors won't be zombies at their jobs (or have to burn vacation) the next day.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by HumblePie

On a slightly unrelated note, why does Bag Day have to be a Tuesday? If it's truly a six week build, make it on a Saturday. If not, just make it a full 7 week build and bag on a Saturday night. The students won't have school the next day, and the Mentors won't be zombies at their jobs (or have to burn vacation) the next day.

It's been my assumption that the Tuesday bag-n-tag day is a holdover from the FedEx days (some far-flung teams still use FedEx). Shipping thousands of large crates on a Sunday would be a logistical nightmare for all parties involved, and the following Monday is (in my experience) always the American holiday Presidents' Day.

[HumblePie]

Originally Posted by Taylor

It's been my assumption that the Tuesday bag-n-tag day is a holdover from the FedEx days (some far-flung teams still use FedEx). Shipping thousands of large crates on a Sunday would be a logistical nightmare for all parties involved, and the following Monday is (in my experience) always the American holiday MLK Day.

In our 3 years, we've crated once (rookie year) and bagged twice. Each time, Bag Day has been after the President's Day weekend. I would prefer a full 7 week build to utilize the holiday weekend, but if the robot sits bagged or crated for a couple of days, I'm fine with that. At least I can get some sleep.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by bduddy

The NCAA has quite comprehensive limits on when and how teams can practice, and their goals are pretty similar...

There is far more money involved in NCAA sports. Especially in terms of schools getting more money if they practice longer hours. They will do better on the field and potentially get into championship games that have large pay outs from advertisers. FRC teams don't get money when they win a World Title (directly). So we are not exactly comparing apples to apples. The money puts far more pressure on coaches and teams in NCAA athletics. If FRC ever gets that commercial (charging admission to the public for events) than maybe it would be a better comparison. Also the last A (association) in NCAA is very important in why they are able to regulate schools.

[Bongle]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

There is far more money involved in NCAA sports. Especially in terms of schools getting more money if they practice longer hours. They will do better on the field and potentially get into championship games that have large pay outs from advertisers. FRC teams don't get money when they win a World Title (directly). So we are not exactly comparing apples to apples. The money puts far more pressure on coaches and teams in NCAA athletics. If FRC ever gets that commercial (charging admission to the public for events) than maybe it would be a better comparison. Also the last A (association) in NCAA is very important in why they are able to regulate schools.

Don't underestimate the power of simply wanting to win. Men's football and basketball (the only revenue-generating NCAA sports) aren't the only NCAA sports: There are plenty of moneypit sports (swimming, rowing, track, triathlon) that athletes will sacrifice their marks and life for, simply to win. And I say that as a former 12-hour-per-week varsity swimmer. Also keep in mind that even in NCAA football/basketball, the athlete himself doesn't directly see a cent (well... except for seeing the officials and coaches around him spending piles of money).

FIRST is no different, and I think time limits would be a reasonable thing. After all, what's the point of inspiring a student to be an engineer, if he/she fails their math and physics courses because they were working on the robot for 4 months?

[rick.oliver]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of teams out there that are extremely inspiring without putting their mentors through extreme burnout or forcing their students to give up other activities, etc. I believe that it is in the interests of FIRST to ensure that that remains the case. If that entails placing or keeping limits on those teams that do not limit themselves as much, that may be unfortunate for them but I think that at some point you have to look at everyone's interests. The NCAA has quite comprehensive limits on when and how teams can practice, and their goals are pretty similar...

The stated purpose of the NCAA can be distilled down to "ensuring a level playing field". The real purpose of the NCAA is debatable. The goal of FIRST is culture change. I don't see anything in FIRST documentation which indicates they are trying to level the playing field. I do agree that they attempt to design games and rules which allow rookies and less experienced (and perhaps less resourced) teams be competitive.

Allowing access to the competition robot throughout the build season will help many teams be more competitive at lower cost with less stress. How some teams may choose to use that flexibility is their choice. It does not change the learning opportunities associated with the program; rather, it opens the opportunity to learn about continual improvement and the impact of decisions.

I would hate to see the day when every team needed to add a "compliance mentor" to their list of mentor needs.

[JB987]

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Our team as a whole took 2 weeks off total before worlds, but we'll send people home or tell them not to come if it's starting to visibly wear them--everyone individually has had much longer off. Additionally, 7 of those 14 days were the first Tuesdays and Fridays of January. If build season was longer this schedule would last longer, because we'd make it that way. We've gained a very firm understanding of what happens if we work our students and mentors too hard for too long: the end product (the robot, team and inspiration) gets worse, not better.

Do other teams not experience this? I would think they do, given that we're talking about burnout. Will "everyone" really try to go full out for 4 months? Why? There are much, much better ways to "keep up with the Jones'" that don't risk harming our end goal. We've already learned HOT meets less often than most of us do in the current build season. If I recall, 1114's mentors are in mostly just on weekends. Yes, a unbagged season will require more self-control, but I don't think I buy the argument that competition will force teams to burn themselves out, if only because it should be a foreseeable situation (is it not? why not?) and has a negative impact on competitiveness.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

+1 to this! We take off every Sunday to give our students and mentors a day of rest. Wouldn't trade it for the world.

I totally get that teams that currently iterate within the 30lb withholding allowance/practice robot would be less "burned out" if they only had to iterate/build one robot. 1678 is a perfect example, they started out with a completely different robot then when they finished. After Madera, they designed a new shooter inspired by 973's incredible design, and slapped that on with the 30 lbs at Davis. Then, between Davis and Champs, they built a more effective intake based on 254's effective pickup system.

Team's like these don't stop working, and it seems like the bag becomes more of a formality then anything else.

I like the idea of having more time to help other teams too, especially rookies. A few extra weekends with the robot could mean more opportunities for effective outreach.

Question: Would teams build a practice bot if there was no bag and tag?

Great discussion for sure, it's hard to image FRC without the 6.5 week "build season", but I'm trying to keep an open mind!

-Mike

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by JB987

"None of the teams are going to say "Today, we take this specific friday off - the team will not meet on friday during week 5 out of 7." That's scary."

Actually Evan, our team did exactly this...after a rough 2010 build season when we tried to do the impossible (lift 2 robots along with our bot) and finally figured out that the points weren't worth the effort, so we decided to take off all Fridays since that season and we also banished all-nighters, rarely working until midnight these last 3 seasons. We scaled back and set smarter work schedules, work fewer and shorter days and as our record attests, it hasn't seemed to hurt our end product. A bag free season could allow us to spread out the work days even better and IMO further reduce the burn out potential while still maintaining a top notch program/robot. As stated in an earlier post, it just takes discipline.

+1. It's a sprint but teams have to pace themselves.

[Pat Fairbank]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Question: Would teams build a practice bot if there was no bag and tag?

Probably. Our practice robot this year fired thousands of discs, suffered numerous collisions with field elements while driven by a certain other programming mentor, survived a 63" fall from the pyramid, and got all sorts of scratches on the powdercoat and polycarb. We wouldn't want to compete with a worn-out robot.

That said, having unlimited access to both robots would do a lot to decrease team stress around those epic Thursday morning rebuilds at competitions and the worry about whether they will perform the same.

[waialua359]

We start every season with at least 1 day (Sundays) off.
Then after a couple of weeks, we find ourselves behind schedule again and spending more and more longer hours per day, seven days a week.
I'm pretty sure our scenario is similar to others.

[JB987]

Originally Posted by waialua359

We start every season with at least 1 day (Sundays) off.
Then after a couple of weeks, we find ourselves behind schedule again and spending more and more longer hours per day, seven days a week.
I'm pretty sure our scenario is similar to others.

Probably because you just have to powder coat your bot...

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by JB987

Probably because you just have to powder coat your bot...

Ever since we started doing it in 2008, there is a correlation between powdercoating and the # of Motorola Quality awards we got.
Next year, we hope that modulating our robot frame and other functional parts via our waterjet will cut down on the build time somewhat and help us build 2 bots for the very first time.