The District System

[Deetman]

Originally Posted by IKE

It was a pilot that year. Lots of little differences. Not really sure why the Delta happened but it happened year 2.

I can't find the information confirming it, but I believe the Day 0 schedules were lengthened after the first year. Most likely a lesson learned from the pilot year to lengthen Day 0 for load in, inspection, and connecting to the field so that teams can hit the ground running the morning of Day 1 and not miss any practice or qualification matches.

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by IKE

It was a pilot that year. Lots of little differences. Not really sure why the Delta happened but it happened year 2.

The first year of MSC was run as a traditional regional. FIRST truck, Showready, etc... It followed the traditional regional schedule. So we had practice matches all day Thursday. Teams only got 9-10 qual matches that year since we started matches on Friday.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink

At MSC, qualification matches start on Thursday afternoon - similar to CMP, except the 64 teams each get 12 qual matches.

As for the district events, I have never regretted not having practice day on Thursday. The 6/8 hour unbag time in our own shop is much more useful. At MI disricts, pits open Thursday evening and they try to get the robots through inspection. They run unscheduled practice matches early Friday morning and try to get every robot on the field at least once to make sure their radios communicate with the field. In other words, between Thursday evening and Friday early morning, we are able to accomplish most of what happens on Thursday at a traditional regional. Since the districts are limited to 40 robots, we still get in 12 qual matches in by noon Saturday.

That's been a mixed bag for 1712. In 2013, we definitely need the unbag time in our own shop much more than practice time. We still had plenty of work left to do on our machine, and having access to it in our shop was tremendously beneficial (even after our first event).

In 2012, however, we were essentially done with our machine a few days prior to bagging it. Having access to a full field would have been tremendously beneficial for testing/tuning our autonomous, getting additional driver practice, and would have revealed to us that our bridge manipulator was going to have issues with a competion bridge (as opposed to our team drawings bridge, which it could tip just fine). It could have helped us prevent the most significant issue we battled with through both of our 2012 districts (eventually solved at MAR championship).

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by dodar

IDK, that may be their logic; or it might not be. I personally believe that it is unfair for teams to be able to go to 2 competitions for the price that others get 1.

I understand your point here, but I want to counter your point with this:

Teams get to attend two district events for the price of one regional, but they have *no way of qualifying for the World Championship Event* at these districts.

So, the price of two districts potentially earns you a chance to compete at the State Championship level.

And the price of one Regional potentially earns you a chance to compete at the World Championship level.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

I understand your point here, but I want to counter your point with this:

Teams get to attend two district events for the price of one regional, but they have *no way of qualifying for the World Championship Event* at these districts.

So, the price of two districts potentially earns you a chance to compete at the State Championship level.

And the price of one Regional potentially earns you a chance to compete at the World Championship level.

That makes a lot of sense; but I do believe that if you asked most robotics kids if they wanted 20-24 guaranteed matches w/ possibly more in eliminations and have a chance at a state championship berth(adding in 10-12 more guaranteed matches w/ possibly more in eliminations) and then possibly a world championship berth vs. 9 matches with a chance at a world championship berth, I would bet 9/10 times they would pick the 1st choice. And that 1 time would be the kid who are in their 4th year and hasn't been to the World Championship yet.

[Carolyn_Grace]

Originally Posted by dodar

That makes a lot of sense; but I do believe that if you asked most robotics kids if they wanted 20-24 guaranteed matches w/ possibly more in eliminations and have a chance at a state championship berth(adding in 10-12 more guaranteed matches w/ possibly more in eliminations) and then possibly a world championship berth vs. 9 matches with a chance at a world championship berth, I would bet 9/10 times they would pick the 1st choice. And that 1 time would be the kid who are in their 4th year and hasn't been to the World Championship yet.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this hypothetical prediction.

I definitely prefer the opportunity of two district events over one Regional, but I'm not sure what that's saying about it being "fair."

Should Districts be just as expensive as Regionals just to make it "fair?" That seems like backwards logic to me.

Especially as FiM does not see most (any?) of the money that teams pay toward the FiM State Championship event. How "fair" is that? FiM teams are paying $5,000 towards an event and the money isn't even used to run that event?

If we want to talk "fair" in financial terms, then it would be interesting to see what Regionals are using money from outside teams' registration fees.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this hypothetical prediction.

I definitely prefer the opportunity of two district events over one Regional, but I'm not sure what that's saying about it being "fair."

Should Districts be just as expensive as Regionals just to make it "fair?" That seems like backwards logic to me.

Especially as FiM does not see most (any?) of the money that teams pay toward the FiM State Championship event. How "fair" is that? FiM teams are paying $5,000 towards an event and the money isn't even used to run that event?

If we want to talk "fair" in financial terms, then it would be interesting to see what Regionals are using money from outside teams' registration fees.

I'm not arguing for "fair." My original comment was a Devil's Advocate post.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

Especially as FiM does not see most (any?) of the money that teams pay toward the FiM State Championship event. How "fair" is that? FiM teams are paying $5,000 towards an event and the money isn't even used to run that event?

Neither FiM nor MAR see any of this money, but I was under the impression that most events do not. (I'm still not sure that's "fair", but I really wish I understood better where all that money goes.)

[Francis-134]

Originally Posted by Carolyn_Grace

If we want to talk "fair" in financial terms, then it would be interesting to see what Regionals are using money from outside teams' registration fees.

I will admit that I just walked into this discussion, but I feel you (all) should know that the money for a regional does NOT come from registration fees. All of the registration fees go to FIRST HQ. Any money needed for a regional is raised by the regional itself.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Francis-134

I will admit that I just walked into this discussion, but I feel you (all) should know that the money for a regional does NOT come from registration fees. All of the registration fees go to FIRST HQ. Any money needed for a regional is raised by the regional itself.

That is correct.

In thinking about MSC and the costs, I'm no longer quite upset at FIRST as I was before. Consider that the Michigan District system supplanted something on the order of 7 regional events.

*Warning - Guesstimates Below*
In the standard regional event there was somewhere around 60 teams. 60 * 7 (old Michigan regionals) = 420 "teams" that played during those events.

At the time, Michigan had approximately 150 teams. Those teams still pay to play in Michigan. It's likely that many of the rest of those 420 teams were playing their second regional in Michigan. (420-150) * 5,000 = $1.35 million dollars.

I'm sure their loss due to the FiM system is much less than that in reality. Some of those 270 'teams' that used to play in Michigan play else where instead, so FIRST doesn't really lose that all that money. If someone would like to quantify this in a better manner, please do.

I'm guessing that it was the loss of revenue that caused FIRST to make Michigan teams pay for entry into State Championships. That's around $320,000. If I haven't overlooked something major, it appears that FIRST may have lost a very substantial amount of money letting Michigan go to a district system. Have I missed something major in my guesstimates?

[Brandon Ha]

In general, as a student, I enjoy the district into state competition more than the prospect of going to a regional. The district system allows for teams to say, Well here we will just say what the heck. Lets just test lotsa stuff and see what happens and then the second one, just dominate the field and wreak havoc everywhere. I do understand that it cost more, but competitivly FiM and MAR show a high caliber of teams similar to St. Louis and even if our team does not compete, I will always enjoy its high class.
With regards to the South Western region -Silicon and L.A. I do believe they would benefit from begining a district system and I would enjoy the new hot spot Week 7.

[Francis-134]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

That is correct.

In thinking about MSC and the costs, I'm no longer quite upset at FIRST as I was before. Consider that the Michigan District system supplanted something on the order of 7 regional events.

*Warning - Guesstimates Below*
In the standard regional event, you have somewhere around 60 teams. 60 * 7 (old Michigan regionals) = 420 "teams" that played during those events.

At the time, Michigan had approximately 150 teams. That means that is every team in Michigan played IN Michigan for their first event, those regionals still generated (420-150) * 5,000 = $1.35 million dollars.

FIRST's money comes from somewhere. It isn't all donated. I'm sure their loss due to the FiM system is much less than that in reality. There's some overlap, in that some of those 270 'teams' that used to play in Michigan play else where instead, so FIRST doesn't really lose that all that money. If someone would like to quantify this in a better manner, please do.

In it's place, FIRST made Michigan teams pay for entry into State Championships. That's around $320,000. If I haven't overlooked something major, it appears that FIRST may have lost a very substantial amount of money letting Michigan go to a district system. Have I missed something major in my guesstimates?

Oops, should have added this too.

Everything I have heard form the NE FIRST crew says that the $5k you pay for your district registration fee goes directly to FIRST as well. However, the money you pay for a 3rd + district goes directly to the district, and the fee is set by the district.

[JB987]

It is not entirely correct to say that no registration money paid to FIRST is ever used to help pay for a regional. In fact there are occasionally situations where a planning committee is unable to raise the complete amount needed to pay for their regional (say when a major sponsor backs out last minute, or local economic circumstances result in difficulty raising enough funds to fully pay for all of the costs of an event). In these cases, FIRST has been known to help make up for the shortage. FIRST also returns some funds to Regional Directors by way of a few hardship grants used to lend a hand to some local teams coming up short on funds needed to make registration fees.

[dag0620]

Originally Posted by Francis-134

Oops, should have added this too.

Everything I have heard form the NE FIRST crew says that the $5k you pay for your district registration fee goes directly to FIRST as well. However, the money you pay for a 3rd + district goes directly to the district, and the fee is set by the district.

To add to this. I know, as of at least December '12, and according to Jess and Mike over at NE FIRST, $1000 of the $5000 teams pay for their district registration comes back to the region (FiM, MAR, NE FIRST, etc.).

[scottandme]

Originally Posted by dag0620

To add to this. I know, as of at least December '12, and according to Jess and Mike over at NE FIRST, $1000 of the $5000 teams pay for their district registration comes back to the region (FiM, MAR, NE FIRST, etc.).

MAR does receive $1,000 per team from their initial registration. I think the operating budget from 2012 was around $400,000, so the remaining $300,000 was sourced from corporate/individual grants and donations.

I believe that the money for 3rd event registration goes to FiM/MAR ($500 in FiM, $1000 in MAR).

For 2013, MAR teams paid around $760,000 in registration to FIRST (MAR events only), and should have received $109,000 back (+ 3rd event money?). Not sure what operating costs were for this year (added another district event, but Lehigh was likely cheaper than Temple).