Pacific NW District (Official)

[Mr V]

A few important clarifications.

It is not yet official that the PNW district will exist for the 2014 season. The intention is to go to the district model but there are many details to work out before it is official.

Northern ID and western MT teams have been invited and are encouraged to participate while southern ID and eastern MT teams will likely continue attending traditional events for the time being. Many of those teams have not traditionally played at the PNW events the district is replacing but they are certainly welcome to join the district.

The goal is to have at least one of the events in OR be outside of the greater Portland metro area.

The goal is to try to have all district events have the capacity for 40 teams but if necessary there may be events with only up to 32 teams. Having 32 team events, depending on the number of teams that participate, could require more than the 10 district events that are currently under consideration.

There is a national committee that is discussing a unified points system for the long term, but that does not mean that the system will be used for all districts for the 2014 season.

Some people in the PNW region have suggested restarting points for advancement to CMP at the district championship but it is far from being debated at this point.

Criteria for advancement to CMP is still under consideration as is the number of teams that will advance. It is likely that the two runner ups for the District Chariman's Award will advance but that has not be finalized yet.

We definitely do need many more volunteers and sign up for that will be through the organization commonly known as FIRST WA. If you are interested in being a key volunteer you can apply here. http://firstwa.org/Volunteer/KeyVolu...plication.aspx general event volunteers can sign up here http://firstwa.org/Volunteer/VolunteerOverview.aspx You will also need to sign up in VIMS however that system is not fully functional at this time and we need your information on a local level sooner rather than later.

The Girl's Generation events in OR, held by The Flaming Chickens FRC 1540, and WA, held by Bear Metal FRC 2046, will be used as an opportunities for training volunteers. We do hope to hold at least one week zero scrimmage, to practice set up of the season's field and FMS and as another volunteer training opportunity, but again that is far from finalized.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Michigan does a points reallocation system where they weight points in district play at a split of something like 65/35 in favor of their CMP.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Some people in the PNW region have suggested restarting points for advancement to CMP at the district championship but it is far from being debated at this point.

As mentioned by others, FiM and MAR triple the point values of any achievements at the FiM/MAR championship events, creating a "60/40" split in points between the championship and districts. The logic behind this is that, while district performance still plays a factor in advancing to the FRC Championship event, it's mathematically impossible to advance to the FRC Championship without attending (and doing well at) the FiM/MAR Championship.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

The plan is for a lot of the largest/densest regions will be supporting the district system by 2015.

I was expecting PacNor to have districts by 2015, but I wouldn't be surprised if they implement it all over the summer while other parts of the continent are hesitant to take the leap until the end of the next competition season.

FIRST wanted the PNW district to start for the 2013 season but we were not confident that it could be done at the quality level desired in that time frame. A number of people from the area attended a FiM district event in the 2012 season and scouting for suitable locations for district events has been on-going since then with dozens of locations considered and visited. As I mentioned above it is highly likely that we will do the district model for the 2014 season but there are still a number of details to be worked out and is still not official.

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

As mentioned by others, FiM and MAR triple the point values of any achievements at the FiM/MAR championship events, creating a "60/40" split in points between the championship and districts. The logic behind this is that, while district performance still plays a factor in advancing to the FRC Championship event, it's mathematically impossible to advance to the FRC Championship without attending (and doing well at) the FiM/MAR Championship.

I am aware of this. I was making the point that restarting the points at the district championship was something that was just brought up recently and is not yet being debated, as Navid indicated initially.

[Madison]

I'd like some clarification from folks who are more familiar with FiM and MAR than I am regarding how teams playing in a third+ district event affect point distribution.

Currently, teams accrue points at only the first two events they attend; they may compete in a third event, but any points that would be earned seem to disappear into the ether. Since there are a finite number of points available for teams to earn per event, the presence of one or more teams that are competing at a third event has the effect of shrinking the number of points available to the other teams. If a team attending its third event seeds first, for example, and wins the event, that's 46+ points (or so) that disappear.

How does this affect teams competing in their first and second events in later weeks? It seems to me that, given that they're competing against more experienced teams, they're likely to not perform as well and will receive fewer points than did the the teams that have already completed their two 'real' district competitions. This has the effect of lessening their chance of attending the district and world championship.

Is this tinfoil hat stuff? What is the argument against taking a team's two best performances for point accrual?

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by SoftwareBug2.0

Minor nitpick: The two major arenas in Portland are the Rose Garden, and the Memorial Colesium. They're located adjacent to each other in an area called the Rose Quarter. The Memorial Colesium is the one that all the previous FIRST events have been in.

You are right, it's currently slated for the "Portland Veterans Memorial Coliseum".
They chose this venue because the costs are much lower than anywhere else, the venue is large and has been great in the past.

Originally Posted by Mr V

just brought up recently and is not yet being debated, as Navid indicated initially.

I apologize if I didn’t make it clear at the beginning. As Mr. V. noted above, none of this is set in stone yet. I just wanted this information to be available to the CD community at large and that it would hopefully foster further discussion.

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.
Jason

Absolutely. Kevin and Deb noted that the district system is being created to improve the quality for local teams. After every team in Washington and Oregon is taken care of, and Idaho/Montana teams have received their invitations, there is a possibility that others may be able to join. We have always been glad to have teams travel to our events, but we are growing fast. I was glad to have 4334 in Seattle and I hope we will see more of you in the future!

[OWilliamson]

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by OWilliamson

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

Incorrect, but it was anticipated that the previously stated regions would be more likely to accept an invitation.

As of right now, there are only 21 teams in Idaho and Montana combined. Even with our projected growth, I would guess we'd be able to make space for all of them. The PNW is certainly not trying to leave anyone out.

[OWilliamson]

It does make sense that the northern Idaho teams would be more likely to come, I just figured I would check. Thanks

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

Absolutely. Kevin and Deb noted that the district system is being created to improve the quality for local teams. After every team in Washington and Oregon is taken care of, and Idaho/Montana teams have received their invitations, there is a possibility that others may be able to join. We have always been glad to have teams travel to our events, but we are growing fast. I was glad to have 4334 in Seattle and I hope we will see more of you in the future!

I don't believe this can work quite like this unless the teams from further afield commit fully to participating the district hierarchy. It'll introduce similar problems to what I've mentioned further up the thread if you have out-of-district teams competing at a district event, as the points earned will be meaningless to them (and they will be unable to earn a berth at the World Championship at the same time).

Districted teams are required to register first for a district event before deciding to attend a traditional regional. I don't believe it's fair to allow outside teams to select a regional event first and then opt to compete in a district event whereby they hurt the chance for local teams to advance to higher levels of play.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Madison

I'd like some clarification from folks who are more familiar with FiM and MAR than I am regarding how teams playing in a third+ district event affect point distribution.

Currently, teams accrue points at only the first two events they attend; they may compete in a third event, but any points that would be earned seem to disappear into the ether. Since there are a finite number of points available for teams to earn per event, the presence of one or more teams that are competing at a third event has the effect of shrinking the number of points available to the other teams. If a team attending its third event seeds first, for example, and wins the event, that's 46+ points (or so) that disappear.

How does this affect teams competing in their first and second events in later weeks? It seems to me that, given that they're competing against more experienced teams, they're likely to not perform as well and will receive fewer points than did the the teams that have already completed their two 'real' district competitions. This has the effect of lessening their chance of attending the district and world championship.

Is this tinfoil hat stuff? What is the argument against taking a team's two best performances for point accrual?

There are very very few MAR teams who compete at a third district event, making it essentially a non-issue for MAR. Granted, there are numerous teams who opt to compete at another regional competition (especially in 2012, when teams where still skeptical about the district system or had already planned on attending particular events). I understand third district events are more common in Michigan (though still the exception rather than the rule).

This was one of the questions addressed by Jim Zondag in his FiM/district FAQ he posted earlier this year. Here are the related questions:

Q10: “Why do you allow some teams to play a third district, isn’t this an unfair advantage?”
A10: One of our primary goals is to increase FRC team participation wherever possible. In pursuit of this goal, we feel that offering vacant slots to teams who want them serves the goals of FIRST and FiM better than leaving them empty. While this does give additional playing time to some teams, all teams who wish to play at an additional event are free to enroll in the annual lottery for these available slots. All teams have equal opportunity for these lottery slots.
Also, if we left these spots empty, we would be giving additional advantage to any team attending a partially unfilled event. Mathematically, the system is fairer overall if the events are all fully attended. We want all events to have the same statistical significance in our system.
We add events in units of 40 slots. Growth forces us to add events each time we add 20 new teams. Usually the number of teams/40 leaves a remainder of 15-20 spots open. We prefer to fill these for event balancing.

Q11: “If teams play at 3 district events, why can’t they use the results from their 2 best events, rather than using the results of the first 2 events?”
A11: One of the core concepts of the FRC build season is the “tools down” concept surrounding bag day. The intent is that the robots are done at the end of the build season. For this reason, all teams are on equal standing relating to available build and upgrade time at their first and second events. This is not true at the 3rd event. For this reason, as long as FRC continues to have machine access restrictions, we will continue to use only the results from the first 2 events played in our ranking system.

For the most part, I agree with his reasoning and decision. You'll find that a majority of teams make significant progress from their first district to their second (the unbagging period after seeing your robot compete for real is a godsend in this regard). While teams competing later in the season are often at a disadvantage compared to teams who competed earlier in the year, this is true in the traditional regional format as well. Allowing teams to use their two best results rather than their first two creates an inordinate advantage to the teams lucky enough to gain access to a third district.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

I know that outside teams are not allowed to compete in Michigan district events. There are a number of issues with letting them compete in a district. The least being that district winners do not qualify for Worlds and district Chairmans do not qualify for Worlds.

I think the first district system that figures out how to fairly let out-of-state teams compete will pave the way. I'd like to see cross-district competition too, but that probably won't happen for quite a while.

My first inclination was to open up the 'extra' district spots to teams outside the state and that they'd have to pay the full regional fee. But not many teams would want to pay that knowing they don't get a World qualifier. In addition, the 'extra' district spots are handed out on a last-minute basis, and most out-of-state teams would hardly want to wait till the last minute to plan all their travel.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by OWilliamson

So If I'm understanding this correctly only Northern Idaho teams will receive the invitations, not the Southern Idaho teams?

Since the Utah regional has existed the majority of teams in Southern ID have been playing there, not at one of the events the PNW district will be replacing while those in Northern ID have typically been attending the events that the PNW district is replacing. So while the invitation is open to all teams in ID we only expect it to make sense for those in Northern ID to participate.

FIRST's long term goal would be for the PNW district to include all of ID and MT as well as AK but in the short term teams are allowed to make the choice that suits them best. The PNW district does not intend to exclude the S. ID teams.

Edit: ID teams and where they played in 2013 season.

Spokane
2122
2130
3145
3315
3513
4520

Portland
2130
3145
4106

Utah
2122
4178
4106
4175
1566
1891
2594
1569
3562
3251
4086

Montana teams

Spokane
3483
1695
1696

Utah
3126
3483

Western Canada
1691

Note there were a number of unfilled positions at the Spokane event and the Portland event.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

I have a great deal of faith in the PNW organizers... they have always been gracious, welcoming and inclusive. I don't think a district system will change that.

Jason

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it.

[MikeE]

Originally Posted by Madison

I'd like some clarification from folks who are more familiar with FiM and MAR than I am regarding how teams playing in a third+ district event affect point distribution.

Currently, teams accrue points at only the first two events they attend; they may compete in a third event, but any points that would be earned seem to disappear into the ether. Since there are a finite number of points available for teams to earn per event, the presence of one or more teams that are competing at a third event has the effect of shrinking the number of points available to the other teams. If a team attending its third event seeds first, for example, and wins the event, that's 46+ points (or so) that disappear.

How does this affect teams competing in their first and second events in later weeks? It seems to me that, given that they're competing against more experienced teams, they're likely to not perform as well and will receive fewer points than did the the teams that have already completed their two 'real' district competitions. This has the effect of lessening their chance of attending the district and world championship.

Is this tinfoil hat stuff? What is the argument against taking a team's two best performances for point accrual?

This problem will exist to some extent if you allow teams to attend more district events than they can accrue points from, whether accrual comes from best 2, first 2 or anything else.

However the loss of district points from the system is clearly minimized if point accrual is from a team's best 2 events.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

I believe I've read that the FiM folks did not intend to close themselves off from civilization either, but that it was a requirement levied by FIRST. Can't find it off hand, can someone confirm or tell me that I'm making stuff up?

Thanks for summing this up Navid, I accidentally slept through it.

See the think to Zondag's FAQ I posted earlier on this page.