Seating Lottery?

[Kims Robot]

Every single year we have complaints about teams saving seats at events, people pushing and shoving to get in the door and get there first, four people saving 80 seats etc.

Well I had an idea that I'd like to get some feedback on. For now, assume its for something like a Regional Event (I'm not sure its a solution for a Championship or small district), but at a reasonable sized area/venue.

If an event was able to provide:
1. A dedicated scouting section with power & a good view for scouters with laptops/cameras.
2. A Floor level section for teams in the current match to come down and watch "up close" and dance/cheer/etc.
3. A Couple of very clearly marked Spectator Seating Areas (maybe 100-200 seats depending on the event?)
4. A storage room for extra bags/boxes/coats that don't fit in the pits or in the stands (maybe manned by a volunteer but not really a "bag check", more of a "leave at you own risk")
5. A lottery that gave each team a block of 40 seats. These seats would be together, but would be "assigned". The lottery would be random and would determine what section you got.
6. A "Craigs List" where teams could post extra seats, trade sections, etc.
7. A "Special Request" form ahead of the lottery for teams that might be interested in sitting together - think mentor/mentee team, sister teams, same sponsor teams, teams from the same school.

What would you think?

Every major concert or sporting event we go to and every plane that we get on (ok except Southwest), we have assigned seats. FIRST has thus relied on GP and people to organize themselves. What if we made it so teams didn't have to get up at 4am and stand outside in the freezing cold?... what if we made it so scouters could see and cheerers could cheer?... what if we made it so the mean parents who don't want to share don't have something to be mean about? What if we could make it so that the only complaint was "bad luck in the lottery"?

Any Pros or Cons you can think of?

Anyone absolutely hate this and prefer the free for all?

[Cory]

This is far too much work for FIRST to implement, on top of all the things they already need to deal with.

Small subsections might be valuable, like dedicated scouting sections or areas for non-FIRST spectators so that they don't have to try and sit in the middle of a team.

[peirvine]

At the Minnesota Regionals, the MN Planning Committee gave each team 2 seats for scouting. These seats were located in the stands, right up front next to the field. They were assigned in numerical order with the lowest numbers up front and the highest numbers up top. It seemed to work very well, and the seats were great, the only thing that was missing was power for laptops :/

[akoscielski3]

I agree with Cory. This is way to much for FIRST to implement.
The only possible way this would work is if the Regional Committee and Event Staff wanted to do it. Though I doubt they would with so much stuff on their plate also.

Also an area where teams can come down and dance and such is fine unless it will be blocking spectators views. I experienced this at FLR when the finals started and the teams went to the floor and started chanting and dancing. I couldn't see a thing, and I couldn't move because there wasn't very much room left. I got to watch 1559 climb the tower and then saw discs flying in. that's about it. I loved FLR except for that fact.

[connor.worley]

Originally Posted by peirvine

At the Minnesota Regionals, the MN Planning Committee gave each team 2 seats for scouting. These seats were located in the stands, right up front next to the field. They were assigned in numerical order with the lowest numbers up front and the highest numbers up top. It seemed to work very well, and the seats were great, the only thing that was missing was power for laptops :/

2 per team seems inadequate. A lot of teams have scouting subteams and would probably want 6 seats + 2 for backups.

[peirvine]

Originally Posted by connor.worley

2 per team seems inadequate. A lot of teams have scouting subteams and would probably want 6 seats + 2 for backups.

I guess it was for "scouting captains." I know my team used them for drivers who wanted to watch matches and for seating for the awards. Though, at some points in time we had scouts sit there for a better view.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by connor.worley

2 per team seems inadequate. A lot of teams have scouting subteams and would probably want 6 seats + 2 for backups.

Yeah, I don't remember seeing a lot of them being used, but I was in the pit most of the time. We only used them for non-statistical scouts that didn't need to immediately interface with our scouting system.

[Michael Hill]

2 people, even "scouting captains" wouldn't be enough. Most teams still rely on paper methods for scouting so having "scouting captains" separate from the rest of the scouters is useless.

[Pendulum^-1]

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

If an event was able to provide:
1. A dedicated scouting section with power & a good view for scouters with laptops/cameras.

Evidently, this is doable; another poster cites it being done already at a regional. Key here is small, simple, only 2 per team, with power. Larger scouting contingents would have figure out alternatives.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

2. A Floor level section for teams in the current match to come down and watch "up close" and dance/cheer/etc.

I put up some details in another post on how this could be done. Key here is self-regulation, and cheering section occupants following the Golden Rule of no standing and no signs. In other words, DOWN IN FRONT! Loud, ok, obstructive, not ok.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

3. A Couple of very clearly marked Spectator Seating Areas (maybe 100-200 seats depending on the event?)

Doable. Needs to be policed a bit, to keep teams proper out of this area.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

4. A storage room for extra bags/boxes/coats that don't fit in the pits or in the stands (maybe manned by a volunteer but not really a "bag check", more of a "leave at you own risk")

Interesting, doable, extremely useful. Key here would be for teams to bring their own lock up boxes to put into the room, clearly labeled with their team's number. No stray jackets/purses, etc. Another key would be for a local team to take it upon themselves to organize it, so that the regional does not have to organize it. In a district, this could work well, if you had one room/hallway/team trailer for this purpose. Bring team lock box(es) in by 9 am, lock it up; unlock for teams to retrieve lock box(es) after playoffs and/or awards.

The rest of the suggestions get really tough to do.

Originally Posted by Kims Robot

5. A lottery that gave each team a block of 40 seats. These seats would be together, but would be "assigned". The lottery would be random and would determine what section you got.

6. A "Craigs List" where teams could post extra seats, trade sections, etc.

7. A "Special Request" form ahead of the lottery for teams that might be interested in sitting together - think mentor/mentee team, sister teams, same sponsor teams, teams from the same school.

For 5,6,7: Ugh. Useful, good ideas, but tough to do. Some venues don't have numbered seats, which would be required to generate the lottery system. This would have to be done by a team or group of teams, to volunteer to do it. How would this be enforced? How would it be sanctioned? Probably a bridge too far.

Items 5,6,7 are doable, but FIRSTers would have to take these on themselves. The event organizers have enough to do without assigning all the seats in the arena.

Also, items 5,6,7 are probably best left as items to group together. Once you assign seats, people will not be satisfied, so trading, special requests, will help the situation out.

Items 1,2,3,4 are probably best implemented as separate items. Event organizers could pick and choose. Test and see, over several events over several years. Indeed, item 2 alone (cheering section) could significantly lessen the need/pressure for the Grand Scheme: assigned seating for all.

I for one do not like the current free for all environment in the stands. As a pit denizen, I would like to see my team play, but without a vanguard of a large team to reserve decent seats, I typically opt to not watch matches, and just clean up our pit.

[peirvine]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

2 people, even "scouting captains" wouldn't be enough. Most teams still rely on paper methods for scouting so having "scouting captains" separate from the rest of the scouters is useless.

Like I said, my team mainly used them for watching matches. Our whole scouting team was together for the whole regional. We used them for watching matches. They were handy for talking with other teams though...

[jvriezen]

I am absolutely convinced that any significant 'improvement' to the seating issues will require a strong incentive to make use of 'crowd' scouting and then relegating teams that don't participate in crowd scouting to some of the least desirable seats. Seating priority during qualifications (if done via signage or otherwise enforced) should be something along these lines (The priority order could be argued a bit but not much, in my opinion.)

1. VIPs/major event sponsors.
2. Teams in current match, red section, blue section (limited to capped seat count, large teams just deal with it) Maybe 6x30 seats. Traffic flow signage could be arranged so that cheering squads can self-queue and quickly swap out between matches without formal volunteers.
3. Crowd-scouts 36 seats total.
4. Public not closely associated with any team (this includes parents who are not coaches/mentors)
5. Rest of team members (no laptops, printers, file boxes etc consuming extra seats -- no seat saving allowed !
6. 'Traditional scouts' and team 'storage' location. These folks can spread out in the remaining seats and stake out a spot and save seats and use extra seats for equipment, coats, bags, etc, with at least one or more team members remaining present to keep an eye on stuff. In some venues, depending upon seat count and public presence, this might be 'end-zone' seats.

FIRST is about engineering, engineering is about efficient use of resources and making trade-offs. It makes no sense for each of dozens of teams having 6 or more scouts all counting the same game pieces being scored. If each bot is watched by 4 to 6 crowd-scouts (36 seats!), you'll have a very accurate data collection.

The goal of providing an excellent viewing experience for the public (both in terms of view quality and comfort in not struggling to find 'unsaved' seats), far, far outweighs the goal of providing six or more premium seats per team for scouting.

Plus, won't the public be more impressed when it is explained to them that the crowd-scouting section has teams working together for the benefit of all?

Each team could be given one button (like a driver button) that is an informal ambassador button, which is intended to be used to sit in the public section and welcome visitors and explain the game/FIRST to them.

[connor.worley]

Questions about crowd-scouting

Are teams required to contribute crowd-scouts?
Do you share data with teams that are unable to contribute?
If yes, will teams abuse this? If no, who makes that judgement call?
How is the data managed, averaged, and shared?
Do I get to take the data home Friday night?
Could the data be poisoned before and/or after averaging? Will it be?
How do you keep scouting sheets circulating between 36 people? (already difficult to do with 6)

[PVCpirate]

At the Granite State Regional, there is a small section (I think 50-100 seats) right in front of the field that only goes halfway up the lower bowl of the arena, and it is reserved for teams in the current match. There's usually someone making sure people enter and leave in an orderly fashion, but I don't remember any problems with it. The teams that have good seats don't use it as much, and the teams that get stuck along the sides get to watch their own matches up close.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by jvriezen

I am absolutely convinced that any significant 'improvement' to the seating issues will require a strong incentive to make use of 'crowd' scouting and then relegating teams that don't participate in crowd scouting to some of the least desirable seats. Seating priority during qualifications (if done via signage or otherwise enforced) should be something along these lines (The priority order could be argued a bit but not much, in my opinion.)

So the teams that don't think your idea is the best idea should be put in the worst seats, because obviously their method is worse than yours?

Every team scouts differently. Every team wants different data. Collaborative scouting works with one or two teams because you talk to them in advance and collectively decide what data to collect, when to collect, how to collect it, and how to distribute it.

No two scouting systems are created equal. In 2009 team 67 had 18 scouts, 1 for each robot, one for balls in each trailer, and one for each human player. It doesn't sound like they would benefit from crowd scouting. Since they don't scout like you do, we get to shove one of the best teams in FIRST (and world champions that year) in the corner? No thanks.

[Andy A.]

I would be largely satisfied if FIRST could ensure that there is, for every match, high quality video feed of the whole field, without any cuts to close ups or drive teams or whatever. Just a single camera with a high angle view of the whole field, uninterrupted for any reason.

Relay that to some projectors and make the video available to download or burn to a disk or whatever. Heck, just provide a AV hookup for teams that want to record that feed as they deem fit. That'd give you a pretty solid base of scouting data to review and work from after matches.

That, for me at least, would answer a lot of the 'scouts can't watch matches' issue. It's not a replacement for scouts seeing matches in person, but at least you can afford to miss one, or not have an awesome view of the field. It'd also help smaller teams that can't manage to have scouts watching matches and working the pits.

I dunno, it's not really an answer to the 'saving seats' issue, but it'd at least answer a lot of scouting problems, in my mind.