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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-06-2013, 20:11
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Originally Posted by Holtzman View Post
It's important to try and separate yelling at someone because they are angry, and yelling so that someone hears you. I've been both a student drive team member, and a field coach. As a student, it was very beneficial to have constant stream of clear and concise instructions in game. It's critical for the field coach to be heard. 2 minutes is a very short amount of time, and at the highest levels, you cannot afford to lose a single match because of miscommunication. It gets hectic in the drivers box so sometimes voices get raised. This is rarely due to anger, but caused more by adrenalin and the need to be heard.
This. I remember getting looks when coaching 1618 in 2008, when visibility was a challenge depending on your player station location. I would often hustle to the end of the player station and shout commands back to the drivers to get them past other robots (or not) or help them time the turn.

I know 2815 makes it a conscious decision for college student coaches, as we feel the leadership experience is important for them as well. I've filled in a couple of times when a college student wasn't available to coach, but by and large we've stuck with them. Historically, we've spread the drive team wealth at human player more than anything.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind the second coach making a comeback. Beyond any tactical benefits, some years the raw process of getting the robot, cart, and driver station positioned and set up quickly and safely starts to get right on the limit of what four humans can do. An extra set of hands on troubleshooting the driver station or stage equipment would be valuable. (And with the removal of the alliance station box on the carpet, I don't know if it'd really be a space penalty.)
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:21
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
I know 2815 makes it a conscious decision for college student coaches, as we feel the leadership experience is important for them as well. I've filled in a couple of times when a college student wasn't available to coach, but by and large we've stuck with them. Historically, we've spread the drive team wealth at human player more than anything.
This is an interesting decision.

I've found that it is very important to have a drive team that is cohesive and works well together. It takes a couple of matches to figure out everyone's style and comfort level to various things.

As such, my personal choice is that a college student (including myself) will never coach on my team. At least, if the college student wants to coach, then he/she will have to commit to all events (including a potential worlds).

I can't risk the student drivers having to bounce their trust between coaches. It's not conducive to good drive team chemistry.

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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:24
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Another beneficial aspect of the adult coach is the institutional knowledge that stays in the team as students come and go during their high school years.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:26
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

Keeping adult coaches is ok but they should be like coaches in sports. They stay off the field. My teams have usually been competitive and we have never needed me lining up the robot. The is part of the drive teams job. The coach should be training his team on how to set up the robot.

In almost all sports the coach coaches from the sideline. If the coach doe not they can be penalized. It just seems that FIRST does not want to budge on this. If parents were surveyed you might find different results. They are the ones who complain to me.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:37
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Originally Posted by yarb65 View Post
Keeping adult coaches is ok but they should be like coaches in sports. They stay off the field. My teams have usually been competitive and we have never needed me lining up the robot. The is part of the drive teams job. The coach should be training his team on how to set up the robot.

In almost all sports the coach coaches from the sideline. If the coach doe not they can be penalized. It just seems that FIRST does not want to budge on this. If parents were surveyed you might find different results. They are the ones who complain to me.
I'm not a fan of the comparison to other sports. Leave the decision to the teams, I do not care what other teams are doing or who they choose as coach. If it works for you and you feel it is the best decision for you, great, but don't ever put a rule into place that tells others what to do.

People pick and choose what they want when it comes to comparing this to other sports, but then if I say that coaches in other sports yell and shout much of the time and talk down to their players, suddenly people don't want to be like other sports. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me. You can't compare yourself to another big league sport only when it is convenient for you. This is simply NOT like other sports. If it was, I probably wouldn't be in it.

This topic has been discussed in past threads before and I will always come to the same conclusion: neither kids nor adults have some inherent ability to be a good coach. Both can be immoral, obnoxious, rude, and terrible coaches. Both can be taught how to coach well. Leave it up to teams to decide what they want to do.

Thank you, Frank, for posting this in your blog.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:41
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Originally Posted by ttldomination View Post
This is an interesting decision.

I've found that it is very important to have a drive team that is cohesive and works well together. It takes a couple of matches to figure out everyone's style and comfort level to various things.

As such, my personal choice is that a college student (including myself) will never coach on my team. At least, if the college student wants to coach, then he/she will have to commit to all events (including a potential worlds).
Normally, the drivers and college student coach have been cooped up together for the entire six weeks and have already had plenty of time for personalities to gel.

The only two exceptions to college students coaching were in 2011; at Peachtree that year, all of our college students were prevented from traveling by an exam that Friday that was announced Monday of that week. Since I was the only mentor on the trip with coaching experience, I took the role. (I like to think that turned out okay.) At Championship that year, the regular coach asked me to tag in for a mental health break after some really taxing matches. I probably would've needed the same in the same situation. In any case, I'm more than happy to be the backup.
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2004-2006: FRC 1293 (D5 Robotics) - Student, Mentor, Coach
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:45
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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In almost all sports the coach coaches from the sideline. If the coach doe not they can be penalized. It just seems that FIRST does not want to budge on this. If parents were surveyed you might find different results. They are the ones who complain to me.
Define "sideline" in respect to FRC.

No, seriously. That may be what the parents--or all of us--need, is a definition of "sideline".

Remember, in all sports, the coach can signal (verbally or otherwise) to his/her players. It's not uncommon for NFL head coaches to tell the players what they need to be doing right before a play begins. (Setting up the robot could potentially fall into this category.)

And, in FRC, anybody other than a driver (pre-college, by definition), operating the robot is a technical foul. (It used to be worse; I want to say a red card for contacting the controls for the coach--regardless of age.)

So, let's define "on the sideline". The "sideline", in FRC, is anything behind the operator console and its operators--I think that's a reasonable description. (In the bleachers counts as "not on the field".) If the coach is back there, coaching (adult or student), they are on the sideline. If they make contact with the controls, particularly if they operate the robot, they are now "on the field" and liable to penalty (and T-fouls ain't light).
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Unread 17-06-2013, 20:49
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Define "sideline" in respect to FRC.

No, seriously. That may be what the parents--or all of us--need, is a definition of "sideline".

Remember, in all sports, the coach can signal (verbally or otherwise) to his/her players. It's not uncommon for NFL head coaches to tell the players what they need to be doing right before a play begins. (Setting up the robot could potentially fall into this category.)

And, in FRC, anybody other than a driver (pre-college, by definition), operating the robot is a technical foul. (It used to be worse; I want to say a red card for contacting the controls for the coach--regardless of age.)

So, let's define "on the sideline". The "sideline", in FRC, is anything behind the operator console and its operators--I think that's a reasonable description. (In the bleachers counts as "not on the field".) If the coach is back there, coaching (adult or student), they are on the sideline. If they make contact with the controls, particularly if they operate the robot, they are now "on the field" and liable to penalty (and T-fouls ain't light).
This is also way better than my point. Thanks Eric.

Additionally, I think people reading this thread should read the multiple others that have been posted over the years regarding mentors as coaches:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...tudent+co ach

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77390

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=91144

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93881
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Unread 17-06-2013, 21:21
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Another beneficial aspect of the adult coach is the institutional knowledge that stays in the team as students come and go during their high school years.
This is huge. Mentors ensure the continuity--for every sub-team--in order to guide greater improvement and inspiration year after year. I know our drive team wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as if we couldn't fully build on this every season. I've worked with many good student coaches (I've been a student coach, as well as a student driver with both). But after 7 years behind the glass, there really is nothing more inspirational or educational for an alliance than working with a powerhouse adult coach.

For myself, easily the most beneficial FIRST opportunity I've ever had is in learning how to interact with people--applied to kinds of people in all kinds of situations--from great adult coaches. I've taken those lessons to spheres of life, to other continents. As a student, nothing else comes close to this behind-the-glass lesson. It was far and away my most formative experience in FIRST, and we weren't even good enough to do it very often.

So to each to their own, for sure. But if say, 365, 341, 25 or 2729 (I'll force myself to stay local, but there are many more) are considering tossing their adult coach out of the box, I would just like to say: while the position can certainly go to a student at team prerogative, you are touching the lives of several more students every time you take the field. This is, like many other interactions in FIRST, in a way that can really only be managed by a strong mentor.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 21:30
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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Good news. The rookie FRC team registration fee for the 2014 season will be dropping to $6,000.
As someone working to start a new rookie rural FRC team, this was the best part of an excellent blog post.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 23:05
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

I fall on the side of the student drive coach. Having said that we have had some student drive coaches that are quite good, some not so good.

What I would like to change is to allow adults mentors to be on the field during the practice matches to help the student drive coach learn, even to the point of allowing the "powerhouse" adult drive coach mentors mentor multiple teams throughout practice day. After all, we are there to help the students learn.

I also like one posters suggestion of a Drive Mentor (adult) and a student Drive Coach. Again with the idea of helping the students learn.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 23:28
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

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After all, we are there to help the students learn.
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Originally Posted by FIRST Mission
Our mission is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting mentor-based programs that build science, engineering and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.
While I agree that helping the students learn is a great thing, I do not believe this is explicitly stated in the mission of FIRST. We are here to inspire students. Inspiration can happen through learning, watching, and doing. Having Drive Coaches that are mentors can serve to inspire students very well even if it excludes students from the position. Students can see a mentor out there on the field as Drive Coach and say "WOW, I hope when I grow up I can be like them!" The same can be said about inspiration via a student Drive Coach. Younger students might see their older teammates or meet other teams' students and think "He/She is really awesome at Drive Coach; I hope I can make a difference like that on the team next year!" Skills can be built and lessons can be learned through watching and without being actively taught.

If we can get high schoolers looking up to positive role models through FRC, whether it be adults or teammates who are leaders (I argue it doesn't matter which), we're doing something right.
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Unread 17-06-2013, 23:53
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

I think there can be a lot of benefit to having an adult coach. With the exception of one match in Atlanta in 2007, 696 never has had an adult coach. I've wanted to for years, but the students still won't let me, and I doubt it will change next year. Could I just say I'm the coach, since I'm the lead mentor of the team? Sure. Will I coach drivers who don't want me as their coach? No way. So, I do the best I can off the field, to make sure they're prepared on the field. And sometimes I enjoy not having the responsibility of it.

I think FIRST did the right thing here leaving it up to the teams.
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Unread 18-06-2013, 00:00
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

If a team wants to have an adult drive coach and feels that benefits the team the most, then they will. If a team wants to have an student drive coach and feels that benefits the team the most, then they will. I wouldn't try to tell them how to pick their drive team anymore than I would tell them how to build there robot.

Team 1912 just finished its 8th year and has always had student drive coaches. I have served as the drive coach for 2012 and 2013. Typically (with a few exceptions) our drive team has been composed of our build captains, with the controls captain as the drive coach, and the chassis captain, CAD captain and challenge captain as driver, operator and human player. Our captains are the students who have invested the most time, who understand the robot the best and who are the most dedicated. Our controls captain has been the drive captain for several reasons. We have always thought that someone one the drive team should know about the electronics and software. Also the control captain always must keep the big picture in mind, understanding all the components in order to integrate them in software. Its also coincided that many of our controls captains have been very, very dedicated.

Before our matches, typically our drive coach and strategist (both are students) talk to and generally touch base with our alliance partners to figure some general strategy. Pre-match we typically have all four members of the drive team involved in discussions to have everyone clued in. During a match, as drive coach I'm generally trying to do several things at once: communicate with the coaches of our alliance partners, help keep track of time, communicate with the human player and guide the general strategy of our robot. Our driver will admit, he has complete tunnel vision and looks at nothing but our robot. Therefore it is my responsibility to keep track of all six robots; for example this year telling him which path would be most efficient from feeder station to goal. There has only been one instance where I told our operator exactly what to do. (This year during our first couple of matches our operator had the habit of firing too rapidly and not letting the discs reload. To help him establish a rhythm I would say "Fire....Fire.....Fire.....Fire". After a few matches though, he got the hang of it and that was no longer necessary).

As drive coach, I also often had a rather odd role post-match. We have had the instance (which I'm sure almost everyone has had) where the drive team gets back the pit after a not-so-great match and everyone not on the drive team wants to say what they thought could have been done differently. I don't really blame them, but situations are seen differently from behind the glass then up in the stands. On the occasions where our mentors have wanted to admonish at the drive team, I have had them tell me (as drive coach) rather than then hassle the drivers directly. Then I process the information and try to give the advice to the drivers in a more calm and applied way. Call me maternal, but I like to protect my drive team from being yelled at.

As a student drive coach, there has been several occasions where I have felt disrespected or looked down upon my adult drive coaches. I do my best to keep a calm face and not get too frustrated. I don't like it and while I try not to keep any grudges, it does leave a temporarily sour taste in my mouth. I also remember being treated with nothing but respect by many fellow drive coaches, student or adults.

Personally I will always lean towards student drive coaches. I think its important for a student to assume that responsibility and that it helps students grow as leaders. Weird thing about the mentors of 1912: they refused to be the drive coach. They are of the firm opinion that a student should be drive coach and the majority of our lead technical mentors have been very passionate about that. Thinking back, our mentors almost never ever drive the robot, even at the build space or on demos. They simply see that as something we kids do.
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Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science Class of 2017
2012 Dean's List Winner, 2011 NWCIT Award of Aspirations in Computing National Winner

2014 - : FIRST Team 3504 Girls of Steel (Mentor)
2014 Engineering Inspiration

2006 - 2013: FIRST Team 1912 Combustion (Webmaster / Controls Capt / Beta Test Lead / Drive Capt / JrFLL Coach)
2013 Woodie Flowers Finalist for Wendy Holladay. 2010 - 2013 Regional Chairman's Award at the Bayou Regional. 2011 - 2012 Best Website at the Bayou Regional. 2010 - 2013 Beta Test Team for Hardware and LabVIEW. 2012 JrFLL State Expo Coordinator.
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Unread 18-06-2013, 06:25
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Re: [FRC Blog] - Rookie Registration and On-Field Coaches

"What works for your team may not work for my team. What works for my team may not work for your team."
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