Canadian supremacy

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by LedLover96

Canada reigned supreme on an international level this year. They had 5/7 winners of major international events (IRI+Champs) this past year, 2/3 world champs, 3/4 IRI champs. Not only that, but none of the IRI winners won champs, and vice-versa.

What makes them so good? Is it the collective drive to get good enough to beat the powerhouses? Does FIRST Canada have a really good mentoring program? Does all of that maple syrup make them somehow super robot-minded? Did the new wildcard system present many new opportunities for them? What is it that makes these guys so good?

I think the radioactive pulsation of awesomeness got blown westward from Michigan over the border and caused the Canadian teams to become even more awesome than they already were.

[Boe]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I think the radioactive pulsation of awesomeness got blown westward from Michigan over the border and caused the Canadian teams to become even more awesome than they already were.

Hopefully it pushes to Minnesota soon

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Boe

Hopefully it pushes to Minnesota soon

The wind blows west. One can only hope that stuff spreads all over New York!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

The wind blows west. One can only hope that stuff spreads all over New York!

Maybe in the winter it can come down south to some warmer weather.

[Jonathan Norris]

Originally Posted by gr8dragon

I would like to thank 1241 and any other teams that let members of "rival" teams join in their ranks. I am sure everyone else who had the chance had just as amazing an experience as I. It was truly humbling to be accepted into teams and be offered a job and be trusted to do what you do best.

As J -No said in his post big thank you to Canada FIRST for helping teams settle in during the strike period.

I think you have a really good point here Parth, I've noticed recently that students and mentors from 'competing' teams make an effort to get involved in another team in FRC when they leave (in most cases high school students going to University). I saw this originally when starting 2809, we founded with mentors from 610, 771, 1114, ect. and have had university mentors over the years from almost every large team in Canada.

We've seen this trend recently on 610, This year we took in 3 188 mentors (Kaj, Pranit, and Sharven, going to miss you guys ), Mr. Lim was originally a 188 student and coached 1310 for a couple years, and Nick Lawrence was from 1503. Looking at our recent graduates they have gone on to mentor 4814, 1310, 2809, 771, and probably others.

This is a recurring trend I've seen from teams in Canada, I think it's been really healthy for the growth and increased competitiveness of teams in Canada. Lets keep it up!

[Racer26]

I see the rise of Canada's second tier in 2013 basically as follows:

Earlier commenter is correct. These teams have been on the rise for a long time, but the old way of qualifying to Championship hid them in the shadows of the 1114 and 2056 juggernaut pair for a long time. The second tier in Canada is huge and keeps growing every year. The second tier used to just be 610 and 188. Now, the list is so long, I don't generally try to list it, because I always miss at least one. I can think of at least 16 that I consider to be on that list.

1114 and 2056 being the dominant powerhouses they are and sweeping Ontario regionals for many years has driven the bar SO high, that even being competitive for a title in Ontario essentially requires that you're strong enough to be a 'powerhouse' elsewhere.

1114 and 2056 not only set the bar high, but they continue to raise it each successive year. Wanna talk about a shocking number? 1114 put up an OPR of over 100 at ONTO2. Without a floor pickup. That means they put up their auto discs, plus three cycles, plus their 50 pt climb and dump, ON AVERAGE. This sort of bar-raising on a consistent basis means not only do the second tier have to be great, they too must continue improving to remain competitive.

There is definitely a LOT of cross-breeding of mentors and students among the Ontario teams. It would be an interesting thought experiment to tie them all back together in some kind of a map. Most teams in Ontario have identifiable ties back to 188 through either 1114, 2056, 2809, 1310, 610, and more. There are a LOT of mentors in Ontario who've been doing this for a long time, many of them not with their original teams anymore. I can think of several who've moved among the powerhouses, and some that have moved to create new powerhouses. 4343 has me, and my 10 years on 1075. 4039 has another former 1075 student. 4476 has a former 610 student. There's many more, I'm sure.

[Pranit T]

It was a wonderful experience for me at my first ever IRI event and I would like to thank Team 1310 for giving me the opportunity to come along and share my knowledge in the strategy and the scouting sub-teams. I was glad I was able to help out the team with my past years of experience with Teams 188 and 610.

And following up J-No's post again, and not just for this year (but I finally noticed it), mentors here try to be involved with multiple teams during the season to spread the ideas and bring to each team what a new look and a new set of concepts to work with. Personally, I have mentored Team 610 for the past two seasons and helped out teams 1241, 1310, 4039, 4069, and 4476 at different ONTO events with their pick lists.

And the assimilation of the multiple ideas has helped make Ontario teams a force to be reckoned with.

I am proud of what all the Canadian teams have accomplished and we'll see to it that the follow-up next season is at par or better!

[George C]

Isn't it time to stop referring to Ontario's (or Canada's) "second tier". 1114 and 2056 (and many other teams) build excellent robots and have great teams but I don't think it's fair to go on about how they set the bar higher etc. If they weren't around would any team feel they could slack off on their design? We design and build the best robot we can with the resources we have - regardless of what other teams are doing.

[cad321]

Originally Posted by George C

Isn't it time to stop referring to Ontario's (or Canada's) "second tier". 1114 and 2056 (and many other teams) build excellent robots and have great teams but I don't think it's fair to go on about how they set the bar higher etc. If they weren't around would any team feel they could slack off on their design? We design and build the best robot we can with the resources we have - regardless of what other teams are doing.

Although this is what teams should do and many teams do it, the motivation that comes from knowing that the only way you will make it to the champs is by defeating a powerhouse can be quite powerful. There are some regionals im sure that there are know powerhouses that attend and so although you try and be the best you can, in the back of the thier mind they still know that they only need to defeat a team that is only so good to make it to champs. Also by having a powerhouse team local to you, it is much easier to see just how good they are to give you a scale of how good your bot needs to be.

[LeelandS]

I can only assume that when you have two teams who show up to your events every year kicking your butts, there is just a point when you sit down as a team and say "I'm kinda sick of this. Let's be better next time." By being dominant, 1114 and 2056 are pushing every other Canadian team to have that conversation and work that much harder.

It's a wall that continues to get higher (I can't be the only one who thinks 1114 and 2056 are improving with the rest of their community to stay at the top of their game), so teams need to work harder to climb the wall each year.

Of course, it also doesn't hurt when one of the teams doing the butt kicking is a Championship Chairman's Award Winner notorious for striving to improve every team in the world, and the other one was mentored by the first one and seems to be well on their way to the same thing.

[Pault]

Originally Posted by George C

Isn't it time to stop referring to Ontario's (or Canada's) "second tier". 1114 and 2056 (and many other teams) build excellent robots and have great teams but I don't think it's fair to go on about how they set the bar higher etc. If they weren't around would any team feel they could slack off on their design? We design and build the best robot we can with the resources we have - regardless of what other teams are doing.

I'm just going to start off by saying I feel kind of wierd writing this post as a student on a U.S. team, because I can't say for certain what makes great Canadian teams tick; I'm not on one. But I do want to try to relate my knowledge to the situation up in Canada. Also, I understand that what I'm saying might not be true for your team.


I agree that the best robots in Ontario besides 1114 and 2056 can't be called "2nd tier", at least not after the amazingly strong showing they have had these past few years. And I don't believe that without 1114 and 2056 Canada would "slack off" in their designs. What do believe is that without them, many (but not all) Canadian teams would have different goals for how competitive they want to be.

Teams can't truly know how good of a robot they have the capabilities to build. On kickoff day, people don't say "given our resources, we will be able to build a cycler that can make 5 cycles per match and has a 30pt climber. In between our first and second regional, we will be able to add a dumping mechanism, although we will miss a practice match to install it." No matter how hard you try, you can't really know what you have the ability to build. So smart teams will gauge what they think they can do, and then they will look at what their goal is (robot-wise). A worthy goal for rookie teams is to play in elims. For some teams it is to win a regional. But for the best of the best, it is to win the world championships or IRI. For those teams whose goal is to win a regional, and up until the wild card system for those who wanted to win the world championships, the teams to beat were 1114 and 2056. So, if you wanted to beat them, you were going to have to build a really good robot, perhaps a little better than you think you are capable of. You will push yourselves slightly beyond what you think is sensible, because that it what it takes to accomplish your goal. If there is no 1114 or 2056, than teams with a lot of resources who want to win a regional would probably opt to build on the safer side and make sure that their robot is working well with plenty of driver practice, because pushing themselves any further is just a risky and unnecessary move. Also, this sets off a chain reaction, so now the teams who were motivated by 1114 and 2056 to do better are motivating other teams to do the same.

Another part of it is teams decided how hard they want to work. Now, I am just as insanely and blindly devoted to FRC as the next guy who is posting on Chief Delphi in the middle of July, if not more, but even I have to admit that there is a point where it becomes too much work. My team probably hit that point last year, and its just not a good thing to do. So if a team doesn't need to work 10,000 hours a week in order to accomplish their goals, its not a bad thing if they decide to just work enough hours that their peers think they are only moderately insane. I would not look down upon a team for doing that.

So, that's my theory that 1114 and 2056 have a huge impact on FIRST Canada. I'm sure it's not true for every team, some teams have different goals than to win a regional. But from my experiences I find it hard to believe that what I've written isn't true for some of Canada's newest members to the top tier. So, please, I'd really like to hear from some more Canadian teams on this subject.

[wendells]

The big brother teams keeps us motivated, 2056, 1114, 610, 1241 and 188.
It's amazing when the old guards leave and I have to develop new students, how locked in they get just by watching these teams performance through the years. 1114 and 2056 inspire us, with their willingness to help teams in the pits. I personally, is amazed by team 2056 robots throughout the years, because I am next to them, I get a birds eye view of there robot, they must be getting ET help (LOL), there robots are awesome. The professionalism that this team displays in their pits is commendable, I always point that out to our team members.
We have no mentors, so we adjust, and huge responsibilities are put on these kids back, they carry it like men.
Team 2056 and 1114 tried their best at GTA West Regional when everything that could go wrong went wrong.
We did not roll over, we licked our wounds and went back into our Manufacturing Workshop and built 3 new drive systems that we are experimenting with, we want to develop something new. We are motivated because I believe 1 day we could be World Champions, and these teams are our measuring stick.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by George C

Isn't it time to stop referring to Ontario's (or Canada's) "second tier". 1114 and 2056 (and many other teams) build excellent robots and have great teams but I don't think it's fair to go on about how they set the bar higher etc. If they weren't around would any team feel they could slack off on their design? We design and build the best robot we can with the resources we have - regardless of what other teams are doing.

I don't think so. The truth of the matter is that 1114 and 2056 are both significantly stronger than their nearest competition in Ontario. Teams like 1241, 610, 188, 1334, 1310, 4001, 4343 and more just aren't as strong. With good strategy and luck 1114 and 2056 can be beaten by them, but the strength to do it consistently is not there. Indeed, at ONTO this year, the #3 (4343) and #4 (1241) seed had a combined OPR of 87.0. #1 seed (2056)'s solo OPR was 86.8.

These '2nd tier' robots, for lack of a better term, are definitely strong enough to be considered powerhouses in their own right, when playing elsewhere, but up against 1114 and 2056, they really don't compare. Not yet. The gap IS closing though. 1114 and 2056 are already stretching the limits of what is possible in each FRC game. The '2nd tier' are consistently getting closer to that point as well.

If 1114 and 2056 did not exist, I do believe that the rest of Ontario's teams would not be as strong as they are. Winning events in Ontario would not require the same level of competitiveness, and so teams would opt for safer, more easily achieved strategies. I would even go so far as to suggest that 1114 and 2056's influence has driven many Ontario teams to have a better program in terms of better fundraising to build a better robot, and to travel further and in general have a greater impact on their students. I don't think 610, for example, would have as strong a program as they do without that influence.

[gr8dragon]

While it is evidently true that both 1114 and 2056 provide a great deal of motivation to teams and allow for them to aim for something much higher, I do not agree with some of the statements.

I have now been a part of teams 1241 and 188, as well as have seen the way other teams like 1310 function. I would like to point out that these teams don't design a robot to "beat" 1114 and 2056 as a personal vendetta. These teams from day one are concerned with winning the Championship, a regional win is really just the penultimate venture. 1114 and 2056 have the same idea, they also want to win on Einstein, but the fact that we are all trying to get there and have do it over each other on the same field makes it more difficult.

That being said, there have been a few regionals in the past where 1114 and 2056 have either not competed together or at all. That's not to say that the teams there will build less competitive robots just because they don't have to beat "powerhouses". In-fact team 610 this year won the BAE event and it was the first event they attended. They didn't build a less competitive robot to win BAE and then change it for when they had to play 1114 and 2056 at Waterloo.

I believe that sometimes people misunderstand how 1114 and 2056 inspire and motivate. There is always going to be the pride of beating them in Ontario for any team that finds a way to do it. However, the real motivation and inspiration is drawn from how well engineered and thought-out their robots truly are. That is why they make teams want to try to build better robots, they show every team that it can be done. Every teams tries to build the best robot they can (why wouldn't you) but these 2 very special teams build robots that just make you go "wow".

Don't get me wrong winning and Ontario regional (over 1114 and 2056) is top of my bucket list, and when it happens it will be something I will always remember.

EDIT:
I am aware that 610 changed their robot for waterloo by adding a floor pickup, and it was because they thought it would help them win waterloo. The reason though was to help them seed first, not to specifically beat 1114 and 2056. Seeding first would mean to break up 1114 and 2056 and possibly work with one of them.

[Mr. Lim]

The answer to this question lies in team 188.

There is one thing they do better than any team in all of FIRST: producing mentors.

Mark Breadner
Roly Anderson
Karthik Kanagasabapathy
Tristan Lall
Ian Mackenzie
Shankar Manoharan
Steve Warren

...and those are just the people you've heard of... WFAs, WFFAs, VoYs aplenty

Kajeevan Anantharajah
Hinkel Yeung
Honson Lam
Karsin Lam
Parth Patel
Shifa Abbas
Carol Huang
Pranit Trivedi
Sharven Muralidharan
Leo Qu
Priyank Purohit
Waqar Muhammed

...and there are plenty that I'm missing. These are just some of the individuals who are actively mentoring other FRC teams currently, and I can just about guarantee there are many more WFFAs in the waiting on that list.

There are countless more who are serial volunteers (but not active mentors), who attend competitions religiously, and who still find a way to stay connected despite leading very busy lives.

The program continually produces exceptional people who remain dedicated to the FRC program. 188 has always produced pretty good robots, but their true strength has always been in building people...

All these people have had a profound effect on our program here, and they in turn have inspired others to do the same. Producing strong alumni like 188 is a pursuit that every team should model, including ours, and you're seeing the effect spread throughout Ontario.

Speaking from experience, I've had the opportunity to be around young alumni mentors from 188, 610, 1241, and 1310. Spend 5 minutes with them, and you'll quickly understand why the program is flourishing up here. They are simply great people, knowledgeable, hard-working, passionate, who are a pleasure to be around, and I'd take any one of them to build an FRC program around in a heartbeat.