Go to Post You know you have bad field problems if both Dean and Woodie come out to try to fix them... :) - tim_reiher [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Programming
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 16:23
E Dawg E Dawg is offline
... is not done with FRC yet.
AKA: Ethan
FRC #0159 (Alpine Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 267
E Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud ofE Dawg has much to be proud of
The One-language-per-year Challenge

I hereby issue a challenge to the programming departments of each team: use a different language each year.

The Rules:
-Use a different language each year.
-The 4 languages to use are C++, Java, LabView and Python. Feel free, however to add others to the mix.
-There must be at least a 4 year interval before a language is reused. In other words, no programmer should ever use the same language twice.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 16:34
Pault's Avatar
Pault Pault is offline
Registered User
FRC #0246 (Overclocked)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Boston
Posts: 618
Pault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

I'm going to avoid the temptation to write a really long post and just ask 1 thing.

Why?
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 16:38
apalrd's Avatar
apalrd apalrd is offline
More Torque!
AKA: Andrew Palardy (Most people call me Palardy)
VRC #3333
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 1,347
apalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond reputeapalrd has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Python is not a real, supported FRC language.

There are 3 choices if you want any help at all.

I too question why.
__________________
Kettering University - Computer Engineering
Kettering Motorsports
Williams International - Commercial Engines - Controls and Accessories
FRC 33 - The Killer Bees - 2009-2012 Student, 2013-2014 Advisor
VEX IQ 3333 - The Bumble Bees - 2014+ Mentor

"Sometimes, the elegant implementation is a function. Not a method. Not a class. Not a framework. Just a function." ~ John Carmack
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 16:46
ttldomination's Avatar
ttldomination ttldomination is offline
Sunny
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Roanoke, TX
Posts: 2,066
ttldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

"Jack of all trades; master of none." comes to mind almost immediately.

- Sunny G.
__________________
1261: 2007-2012
1648: 2013-2014
5283: 2015
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 18:29
Ilovepineapples's Avatar
Ilovepineapples Ilovepineapples is offline
Pineapple Enthusiast
no team
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 28
Ilovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to beholdIlovepineapples is a splendid one to behold
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

I like the idea of the challenge but I think it would be kind of hard to implement. The teams I have experience with have never really had a "dedicated" programming team, generally they do electrical and pneumatics as well.

On the other hand I have been looking into using python to program our robot, even though it is not 'officially' supported.

My goal has always been to be the "Jack of all trades; master of none." as ttldomination stated.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 18:32
BrendanB BrendanB is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brendan Browne
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Londonderry, NH
Posts: 3,104
BrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

We've used 3 different languages in the past 3 years. Hey, it happens when your team is founded with freshman, they grow up and learn new stuff!

I think we've found our preferred language by now, Java.
__________________
1519 Mechanical M.A.Y.H.E.M. 2008 - 2010
3467 Windham Windup 2011 - 2015
1058 PVC Pirates 2016 - xxxx
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 18:33
ttldomination's Avatar
ttldomination ttldomination is offline
Sunny
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Roanoke, TX
Posts: 2,066
ttldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond reputettldomination has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilovepineapples View Post
My goal has always been to be the "Jack of all trades; master of none." as ttldomination stated.
Well, that saying can really be considered either good or bad.

In competition, especially FIRST, I think it is widely accepted that it's better for you to do one thing really really well as opposed to do a lot of things at a mediocre level.

- Sunny G.
__________________
1261: 2007-2012
1648: 2013-2014
5283: 2015
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 19:21
rsisk's Avatar
rsisk rsisk is offline
The GURU Channel
AKA: Richard Sisk
FRC #2493 (Robokong)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 2,750
rsisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond reputersisk has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to rsisk
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pault View Post
I'm going to avoid the temptation to write a really long post and just ask 1 thing.

Why?
I'll throw out a reason. Learning multiple languages helps you learn to think in terms of programming structures, or design patterns, ie., you become more meta and less syntax.

That said, I would probably use a base language year over year and have off season challenges to re-implement in a new language. Then switch if your team decides it wants to.
__________________
Quote:
The views expressed are mine and should not be construed to represent the views of anyone else.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 20:28
Foster Foster is offline
Engineering Program Management
VRC #8081 (STEMRobotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,394
Foster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond reputeFoster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

I'm a big fan of Robo-Cobol and think that most teams should moving that way.

I can see taking an existing robot and trying to program it in some other language as a possibility. So it's a teaching moment.

On the other hand to program a robot during a season because it's a different language seems like a bad idea.
__________________
Foster - VEX Delaware - 17 teams -- Chief Roboteer STEMRobotics.org
2010 - Mentor of the Year - VEX Clean Sweep World Championship
2006-2016, a decade of doing VEX, time really flies while having fun
Downingtown Area Robotics Web site and VEXMen Team Site come see what we can do for you.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-07-2013, 21:17
Pault's Avatar
Pault Pault is offline
Registered User
FRC #0246 (Overclocked)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Boston
Posts: 618
Pault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond reputePault has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsisk View Post
I'll throw out a reason. Learning multiple languages helps you learn to think in terms of programming structures, or design patterns, ie., you become more meta and less syntax.

That said, I would probably use a base language year over year and have off season challenges to re-implement in a new language. Then switch if your team decides it wants to.
I can definitely see the benefit of multiple languages. In fact, when I first saw this thread, I thought it was a challenge to learn a new language every year, but as an individual rather than as an entire team, and thought "wow, that's a really cool idea." And even having a team to try to learn some of the other languages during the off-season would be pretty cool, although I could think of better things to be spending code training time on. Coding your competition robot in a different language every year, though, is just counter-productive. One of the biggest problems I could see teams running into is having mentors who only know one of the languages well, then having to find new mentors every year because the old ones decide not to try to learn the new language.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-07-2013, 00:22
faust1706's Avatar
faust1706 faust1706 is offline
Registered User
FRC #1706 (Ratchet Rockers)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: St Louis
Posts: 498
faust1706 is infamous around these partsfaust1706 is infamous around these parts
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Our team has always programmed in labview. In 2012 we implemented vision for the first time. In 2012 & 2013 we used C for vision, this summer me and another student are forcing ourselves to write every vision project in C++. By next summer I hope to be using python for some projects. Our scouting program was written in C# this year. The reason we write in so many languages is because our mentors that help with programming just happen to know different languages.

While we don't switch programs every year, we offer a wide variety, so if you don't find labview amusing, you can try another. I personally don't care what language a teammate programs in as long as they enjoy it and it works.

I believe this is a safer alternative than switching languages every year. It still provides the diversity, but the veteran experience is still there.
__________________
"You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-07-2013, 07:13
Roger Roger is offline
Registered User
FRC #1153
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 1900
Location: Walpole MA
Posts: 688
Roger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond reputeRoger has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foster
I'm a big fan of Robo-Cobol and think that most teams should moving that way.
Hey! That's my line!

It's true that learning other languages is useful, like when the mother cat and her kittens were suddenly confronted by a dog. Mother cat barks furiously and the dog runs away. "See?" the mother cat says to her kittens. "Now you see why is important to learn a foreign language!"

I agree with rsisk, that learning multiple languages helps teach programming structure and method. LISP and FORTH, for example, have a very logical format. (APL too, for that matter.) Maybe not as readable, but it makes sense. Robo-COBOL, on the other hand, is very readable, but oh-my! The typing! The typing!

Our team used LabVIEW ever since it was introduced. The school district's FLL and FTC teams are already using LabVIEW, and we're starting to see those kids coming up to FRC already knowing how to do the basics. We (the mentors) would prefer sticking to the one language "just in case". What if your lead programmer can't make it to a competition? Can your relief pitcher pick up the language real quick? I don't mind exploring/learning other languages off-season, but let's keep everyone focused on one language -- whatever it is -- during build season.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-07-2013, 08:23
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
Registered User
FRC #1640
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: West Chester, Pa.
Posts: 1,370
Gdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

The build season is 6 weeks. The programming team is lucky if they get a vetted mechanically robot at the end of week 4. More like the last week or the last week end . Not a time for the programming team to be dealing with a new language. I want our programming team to be up to speed and ready to run hard when the robot is finally ready for them. If we change a language it would have to start in the summer and continue through the fall to be ready for the season. We have students that have multiple years of lab view experience and can run with a project. I would hate to throw all that experience away. We have used some arduino boards and some programmers have been exposed to c and c++ with them. I prefer a master of one.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-07-2013, 09:16
brennonbrimhall brennonbrimhall is offline
Free Agent
AKA: Brennon Brimhall
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Clifton Park, NY
Posts: 222
brennonbrimhall is a name known to allbrennonbrimhall is a name known to allbrennonbrimhall is a name known to allbrennonbrimhall is a name known to allbrennonbrimhall is a name known to allbrennonbrimhall is a name known to all
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

At FRC, you really only need to learn one language. Consider the pit area for a team. They have lots of tools to work with – but no two tools are designed for precisely the same purpose. A Philips screwdriver will not replace an allen key or some extruded aluminum (MacGyvering aside). Us programmers only have four tools/languages to work with (yes, Python is a perfectly viable option, don't dismiss it), but these tools are all intended to do the same thing. That's why FIRST remains primarily a mechanical competition, not really a programming one, and why teams will stick with a language.

In short, I think it makes sense to select a single language that suits your team for robot-related tasks, but also broaden your palate with non-robot languages – 254 just released an amazing Ruby-based CAD program, for example, that relied on some not-trivial SQL. Or 245, who released a scouting app written primarily in Javascript, designed to calculate OPR, CCWM, etc. There are two branches of FRC programming – the Robot, and some utilities for your team.
__________________
Team 20, 2012-2014: 4 blue banners, 5 medals, and 9 team awards.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2014-2016: Missionary, Colorado Denver South Mission.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 24-07-2013, 11:38
techhelpbb's Avatar
techhelpbb techhelpbb is offline
Registered User
FRC #0011 (MORT - Team 11)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,624
techhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond reputetechhelpbb has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The One-language-per-year Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foster View Post
I'm a big fan of Robo-Cobol and think that most teams should moving that way.
Robo-Cobol 74:

000100 IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
000200 PROGRAM-ID. FOURDIVISIONSNOSUPPORT
...


Seems to me that this is sort of an opt-in venture. Sounds like fun but I am not sure most teams would want to chance that they switch to an unfamiliar language on what will most certainly be a new platform they will not probably have weeks into a 6 week build. Definitely worth learning to do outside of the build season however.

Gonna be hard to get the IBM mainframe on the robot in the weight limit.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:22.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi