Go to Post We can be equal, but not truly the same. - Molten [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Electrical
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 12:55
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Proper way to connect a solenoid

My team is adding t-shirt cannons to our robot for the offseason, and we are using sprinkler valves as solenoids to fire them. We have little experience with pneumatics, we managed to get the compressor working with no trouble; however, we don't know the proper way to connect the solenoid so that we can fire. We tried connecting it to a Spike and switching the spike on, but it was unsuccessful. What is the correct way to do this?
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:12
gr8dragon's Avatar
gr8dragon gr8dragon is offline
Registered User
AKA: Parth Patel
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Toronto,Canada
Posts: 39
gr8dragon is a glorious beacon of lightgr8dragon is a glorious beacon of lightgr8dragon is a glorious beacon of lightgr8dragon is a glorious beacon of lightgr8dragon is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

There is a solenoid module and breakout for the cRio (much like the analog) to which solenoid can be connected. Inside of the program they will need to be fired using the Solenoid class.
__________________
FRC 2013 World Champions 1241 (1477, 610) Thank you Team 1241 for letting me be a part of your wonderful team.
FRC 2010 GTR Regional Chairmans (188)
FRC 2009 Finger Lakes Regional Champions 188 (1507, 174)
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:15
daniel_dsouza daniel_dsouza is offline
does what needs to be done.
FRC #2449 (Out of Orbit Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: May 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 231
daniel_dsouza has a spectacular aura aboutdaniel_dsouza has a spectacular aura about
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

A spike should work for a typical valve.

Check to make sure that you can actuate the solenoid in the first place (with a battery).

Check the specs for your valve. Does it use 12V, or 24V (unlikely)?

Did you code it correctly? If you are not sure, look at the colors on the spike. It should change between red and green for reverse and forward. Yellow means that it isn't doing anything

this has been on our team's bucket list for some time too, but we never get around to it.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:20
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8dragon View Post
There is a solenoid module and breakout for the cRio (much like the analog) to which solenoid can be connected. Inside of the program they will need to be fired using the Solenoid class.
Thanks, we will definitely try that, we would've done that earlier, but we are in the process of moving all of our parts so we don't have the breakout right now.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:30
magnets's Avatar
magnets magnets is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 748
magnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

If you're using valves that aren't the typical FRC type (like sprinkler valves), I'd recommend using a spike relay instead of the solenoid module/breakout. Then you would use the relay class/vi instead of the solenoid one when you program it.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:30
bardd's Avatar
bardd bardd is offline
That loud guy
AKA: Bar Danino
FRC #2212 (The Spikes)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Israel, Lod
Posts: 347
bardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant future
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Like Daniel said, you should start by seeing if it's working. You don't need to connect the solenoid to a battery for that.
If you look at the solenoid, you should find that it has to small buttons on top. Pressing them triggers the solenoid, there's one button in charge of opening each output. Note, this only works when the system is pressurized and there's no place for the air to escape through other than the solenoid's release openings. Leaks won't interfere with the test as long as they're not huge, so don't worry about making it super-secure (save your teflon for the actual system). I can't find a photo right now, I'll keep looking.
Hook it up to a system with a piston (one input tube coming from the compressor, either directly or through a regulator, two output tubes, one to each side of the piston). Start the compressor with a battery. When it's pressurized, press a button and see if the piston works. If not, press the other. If it still doesn't work, you have a faulty solenoid.

As for wiring, it's usually best to use the cRIO's relay module like parth suggested. You can use a spike if you want, but then you have to have one for each side so you can both open and close. You'd still have to wire both sides with the cRIO, but it's way easier since both connections are already there. Make sure you got polarity right! Polarity is confusing in solenoids, more than other electrical components you often use.

Could you post a picture of the system? Maybe there's a problem we can't find with your description, but we could see in a picture.
__________________
Team FRC#2212 The Spikes, 2011-...
Builld leader 2013
Drive coach 2012-2013
Mentor 2015-...
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:31
tr6scott's Avatar
tr6scott tr6scott is offline
Um, I smell Motor!
AKA: Scott McBride
FRC #2137 (TORC)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 535
tr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Most sprinkler valves I have seen are 24v AC (Alternating Current) like the power in your house. The robot runs on 12V DC, and the power distribution board also has a 24V DC power supply built in to run the cRio.

I did do some searching around, and it appears that there are AC valves that actually work with DC, but may or may not work with the valve you have. (http://www.avrfreaks.net/index.php?n...wtopic&t=75553)

(Remember applying voltages to components outside their specifications you are risking failure, and if on a production bot, would not pass inspection) This is not a smart decision, but it may work.

So you can test straight with 12v or 24v dc power and see if it works, if it does, then you can look at making it work from the bot.

As for wiring with a spike, review team 358 documents here. http://team358.org/files/pneumatic/P...RIOversion.pdf

I could cut and paste the diagram here, but they have done the hard work and deserve the credit.
__________________
The sooner we get behind schedule, the more time we have to catch up.

  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:31
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Also, is there some time of sensor that gives feedback on what psi the compressor is at? We want to be able to adjust how far we can shoot the shirts by changing how much pressure is in the tanks.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:35
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

I can say that the solenoid does work, we were able to fill up the air tanks with the compressor, and fire a t-shirt a very good distance by connecting the solenoid directly to a battery
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:41
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

I've found out that it is in fact a 24v valve, what would you guys suggest based on that?
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:44
bardd's Avatar
bardd bardd is offline
That loud guy
AKA: Bar Danino
FRC #2212 (The Spikes)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Israel, Lod
Posts: 347
bardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant future
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkoripalli View Post
I've found out that it is in fact a 24v valve, what would you guys suggest based on that?
As far as I know, there's no way of getting 24V except hogging the cRIO's power, and I wouldn't suggest that. Is there a way for you to get a 12V one?
__________________
Team FRC#2212 The Spikes, 2011-...
Builld leader 2013
Drive coach 2012-2013
Mentor 2015-...
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:51
magnets's Avatar
magnets magnets is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 748
magnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond reputemagnets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

If you were able to successfully operate the valve using the KoP 12V battery, you should be able to do it with a spike relay, wired the same way your compressor is set up.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:53
tr6scott's Avatar
tr6scott tr6scott is offline
Um, I smell Motor!
AKA: Scott McBride
FRC #2137 (TORC)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Oxford, MI
Posts: 535
tr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond reputetr6scott has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

From the link I posted, they were talking that they were reliably firing the solenoids with 9vdc batteries, so I would wire it with a spike to the 12v battery. Let it run, and monitor how warm it gets, just to watch for early failure.

Not sure how much to spend on an analog pressure sensor, but we use these in industry. http://www.ifm.com/products/us/ds/PN2024.htm with good success.
__________________
The sooner we get behind schedule, the more time we have to catch up.

  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:54
rkoripalli's Avatar
rkoripalli rkoripalli is offline
Registered User
AKA: Rohan Koripalli
FRC #3735 (Klein Bots)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Klein
Posts: 19
rkoripalli is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by bardd View Post
As far as I know, there's no way of getting 24V except hogging the cRIO's power, and I wouldn't suggest that. Is there a way for you to get a 12V one?
As of right now we're open to anything. We're actually planning on building 4 cannons, but we only have one right now. If its possible we would like to get the 24v one working though
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 07-08-2013, 13:59
bardd's Avatar
bardd bardd is offline
That loud guy
AKA: Bar Danino
FRC #2212 (The Spikes)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Israel, Lod
Posts: 347
bardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant futurebardd has a brilliant future
Re: Proper way to connect a solenoid

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkoripalli View Post
As of right now we're open to anything. We're actually planning on building 4 cannons, but we only have one right now. If its possible we would like to get the 24v one working though
Working with the 24V isn't different than 12V, and like Scott said, if it worked with the battery it'll work on the robot. The thing is since you're not using the solenoid's specifications it might fail or work poorly. Also, it's bad practice to not supply the component's specifications, that's why I suggested getting another.

Other than the tips in my original post, there's not much I can say, based on your description. Do you think you could post a picture of the system you built?
__________________
Team FRC#2212 The Spikes, 2011-...
Builld leader 2013
Drive coach 2012-2013
Mentor 2015-...
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:17.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi