Creating the perfect robot

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

• If we want the raising shooter(which I really see no reason for, as we all know that cycling is generally better than full court) Then use 1477's design.

The idea is the ideal robot, so in theory, the ideal robot would have the ability to shoot full court from an elevated position.
This isn't a discussion on whether or not a robotics team should ever try any of these things (as I don't see any team pulling it off), it's a discussion of what that robot would be.

So a more reliable 233 with a 50-point climb would satisfy that requirement, I think. But I don't know how that would work. Possibly a 1334-style climber on the back of 233's elevator? I don't know. Their design doesn't really work for a 67/1114 style climber.
They could have a 4451-style climb/dump. Or a 2170-style climb/dump. But regardless, it would be extremely difficult to integrate with the 233 design.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Or even throw them "hammer" style at a higher angle.

I really wanted someone to do that and succeed, but alas, no team I know of did it.

[AdamHeard]

I think it's interesting that everyone seems to be assuming the ideal robot must have every single capability in this game.

Curious to hear what people's definitions of ideal are.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Or even throw them "hammer" style at a higher angle.

We prototyped a hammer throwing FCS, but couldn't get the right combination of forward speed and spin with our prototype. It's probably possible, but would have taken more resources then we had during the build season.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I think it's interesting that everyone seems to be assuming the ideal robot must have every single capability in this game.

Curious to hear what people's definitions of ideal are.

Then what would your definition of the "Perfect Robot" be?
My definition would be a robot that excels at every aspect of the game.
Do I think that a robot without all these functionalities can excel at UA?
Obviously.


In order for this theoretical robot to excel at every aspect of Ultimate Ascent, it should have:

7-Disc Auto

Ability to cycle very effectively- meaning fast drivetrain/strong drivetrain and ability to drive under the pyramid and avoid defense, fast shooting

Ability to play a floor game very effectively- Roller-floor pickup, front/back of the pyramid shooting positions, ability to pick up discs and shoot discs in both orientations

Ability to full-court shoot very accurately and limit the level of defense to be played on them- High release point, accuracy, fast lineup (either by code or a hard stop)

Have a consistent and fast 50-point climb (including line-up time)- meaning all 4 colored discs need to consistently go into the pyramid goal

[MichaelBick]

Originally Posted by Thunder910

Ability to full-court shoot very accurately and limit the level of defense to be played on them- High release point, accuracy, fast lineup (either by code or a hard stop)

Honestly I don't see why a perfect robot needs to have an FCS. At the top levels of play the field is going to be deep enough to run a 3 cycler alliance(which as we well know, can pretty reliably clear out the feeder station). In a shallow field you can beat strong alliances regardless of FCS. If you still decide to run an FCS, there should be no reason why it has to be tall. If you are only FCSing you will promote defense. A much better style is a run and gun style similar to that of 469.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

Honestly I don't see why a perfect robot needs to have an FCS. At the top levels of play the field is going to be deep enough to run a 3 cycler alliance(which as we well know, can pretty reliably clear out the feeder station). In a shallow field you can beat strong alliances regardless of FCS. If you still decide to run an FCS, there should be no reason why it has to be tall. If you are only FCSing you will promote defense. A much better style is a run and gun style similar to that of 469.

What if you get picked by a good floor-pickup like 33 whose cycling isn't all that great?
What if you're completely outgunned in a cycling battle in a qualification match?
Full-court shooting is a game-changer. It forces your opponents to alter their game strategy to deal with your full-court shot, and if they can't block you, they likely lose, especially if you can then pick up your own misses and shoot those. Even 2-point full-court shooting is deadly provided those discs aren't going to be scored otherwise.

Ex1: If you DON'T block 67, you lose. They can score over 200 points on their own.

Ex2: 2169 in Galileo is arguably the best dedicated full-court shooter in the world. Their FCS game is so #solid that they were the only teleop threat (that was leveraged) on their divisional finalist alliance. Their FCS shot was also difficult to block because of it's high release point.

[brennonbrimhall]

Originally Posted by MICHAELABICK

Honestly I don't see why a perfect robot needs to have an FCS...a 3 cycler alliance...can pretty reliably clear out the feeder station.

Originally Posted by Thunder910

What if you get picked by a good floor-pickup like 33 whose cycling isn't all that great?
What if you're completely outgunned in a cycling battle in a qualification match?

I think the current set of ideas gravitate towards the best robot -- and not the best alliance. This is a complete hypothetical that won't ever be considered, because it can't be, because one must pause and consider the other 66% of your alliance.

I think the question of the perfect alliance is a completely different question, and deserves a completely different answer.

And while a robot can't do everything, I think there were lots of robots (469, 987, 118 etc.) that were diversified enough that they opened up lots of strategic options for their alliances. And they could almost do everything -- and do it well. But the fact remains: no one robot was capable of performing every single role in Ultimate Ascent well (of which FCS was one); that robot is what I'm trying to theorize about, and mentally construct.

[evanperryg]

What if you get picked by a good floor-pickup like 33 whose cycling isn't all that great?

We are talking about an all-around, god-tier robot. That robot would be the one picking, if anything.

Anyway, I would like to inform all of you that I am now CADing the ultimate ultimate ascent robot. Might post pics if I can finish it.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

We are talking about an all-around, god-tier robot. That robot would be the one picking, if anything.

Anyway, I would like to inform all of you that I am now CADing the ultimate ultimate ascent robot. Might post pics if I can finish it.

I'd like to point out that the three best robots in Archimedes got picked, they didn't captain their own alliances (i.e. 254, 469, 987).

If this robot couldn't stand up to a match against three good cyclers with limited to zero help (i.e. being able to FCS, as that's they only way they would stand a chance), then they wouldn't sit at the top of the rankings, as they would lose that match.

And I totally want to see this CAD. It'd be epic.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by Thunder910

I'd like to point out that the three best robots in Archimedes got picked, they didn't captain their own alliances (i.e. 254, 469, 987).

If this robot couldn't stand up to a match against three good cyclers with limited to zero help (i.e. being able to FCS, as that's they only way they would stand a chance), then they wouldn't sit at the top of the rankings, as they would lose that match.

And I totally want to see this CAD. It'd be epic.

A fcs with no help vs 3 cyclers would get pounded, too. Also, the base is almost done. Making a request for 67, 987, 254, 1114, 2056, 610, 1310, and 3476 to post their CAD.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

A fcs with no help vs 3 cyclers would get pounded, too. Also, the base is almost done. Making a request for 67, 987, 254, 1114, 2056, 610, 1310, and 3476 to post their CAD.

I think an undefended 67 would crush most 3-cycler alliances.

[BobbyVanNess]

I've done a lot of thinking about this on my own, especially after IRI. I define the "Perfect Robot" as the bot that would most likely go undefeated through official match play, all the way to Einstein. In my mind, this would require the ability to reliably come somewhat close to producing the absolute maximum theoretical score for one robot. There will always be matches where the odds are against you, which means you'd need to have the greatest odds of winning any match, requiring a lot of versatility.

So let's start with the autonomous. The most we've seen from one bot is 7 discs (8 from 254 picking up misses), but I believe it might be faintly possible for a team with a good enough floor collector and strong programming to score 8-9 discs in auto.

Then there's Tele-Op, where I believe it should have the capability to full court shoot when undefended, and empty the alliance station. It would then go across the field and clean up any of its own misses. Essentially, it would have the capability of scoring every one of the alliance's discs, and possibly then some off of the ground.

Finally, it would load up the colored discs (either from the alliance station or the ground) and climb to 30, scoring the discs in the pyramid goal. Depending on the speed of the full court shooter, and the ground load time of the bot, the time it takes to climb may not be a crucial detail.

Now the fun part: What IS this perfect bot? Maybe a climb like 25's or 842's could be implemented on a 469 type bot. From the way I've seen their collector work, it looks like the >7 disc auto could maybe be possible. However, the bot that I believe is closest to this ideal "Perfect Bot" is 67. Now if a bot like that could implement a ground collector, possibly even for autonomous only, their max score would be 7 discs in auto, 47 in the high goal during tele (45+2 alliance colored discs), 4 in the pyramid, and the 30 point climb. That adds up to 233 points. If a 9 disc auto were possible, then that figure would increase to 245.

Of course, is any of this useful as hindsight? Will it help us in the future? Absolutely not! But it certainly helps hold us over until next build season

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by bobby5150

I've done a lot of thinking about this on my own, especially after IRI. I define the "Perfect Robot" as the bot that would most likely go undefeated through official match play, all the way to Einstein. In my mind, this would require the ability to reliably come somewhat close to producing the absolute maximum theoretical score for one robot. There will always be matches where the odds are against you, which means you'd need to have the greatest odds of winning any match, requiring a lot of versatility.

So let's start with the autonomous. The most we've seen from one bot is 7 discs (8 from 254 picking up misses), but I believe it might be faintly possible for a team with a good enough floor collector and strong programming to score 8-9 discs in auto.

Then there's Tele-Op, where I believe it should have the capability to full court shoot when undefended, and empty the alliance station. It would then go across the field and clean up any of its own misses. Essentially, it would have the capability of scoring every one of the alliance's discs, and possibly then some off of the ground.

Finally, it would load up the colored discs (either from the alliance station or the ground) and climb to 30, scoring the discs in the pyramid goal. Depending on the speed of the full court shooter, and the ground load time of the bot, the time it takes to climb may not be a crucial detail.

Now the fun part: What IS this perfect bot? Maybe a climb like 25's or 842's could be implemented on a 469 type bot. From the way I've seen their collector work, it looks like the >7 disc auto could maybe be possible. However, the bot that I believe is closest to this ideal "Perfect Bot" is 67. Now if a bot like that could implement a ground collector, possibly even for autonomous only, their max score would be 7 discs in auto, 47 in the high goal during tele (45+2 alliance colored discs), 4 in the pyramid, and the 30 point climb. That adds up to 233 points. If a 9 disc auto were possible, then that figure would increase to 245.

Of course, is any of this useful as hindsight? Will it help us in the future? Absolutely not! But it certainly helps hold us over until next build season

Possibly with a 2474 style collector. It collects both forward and backward.
Maybe the shooter can be elevated to 60" to shoot full court, and lowered below 30" to shoot auto. I kinda like that idea. A shorter 67 with a 2474 collector. And MAYBE the ability to change their shooter height.

[chmorroni]

Just a thought, but I know our robot (a more-or-less FCS) and a few others that I saw had to let their shooter wheels speed back up after each shot. What if it had a system of 2 shooters, so it could go through all the alliance's white Frisbees much more quickly? Then you have more time to do each of the other things on the list.