No Ship Day?

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by E Dawg

Intriguing...

Although having more days to work on the robot would be excellent, I hope that there is a set bag'n'tag date. 6 weeks is already a lot of time (especially for the mentors) away from family. I should think that HQ wouldn't increase the time longer than it already is.

In addition, I think that increasing the build time may give some teams an unfair advantage at Nationals. Since competitions are staggered over the course of several weeks, those teams who have earlier events are at a disadvantage compared to other teams, especially those who can only afford to go to one event (other than Nationals, of course).

Before this thread goes to much further, anyone with an opinon on this issue should first read through this thread. The 442 posts pretty much encompass every argument and view point on the issue.

[khanh111]

The Pacific Northwest is switching to a district model this year. Two main changes to bag n' tag will apply for us. These are in the interest of saving time that would otherwise be used on competition day.

1. There will be FIRST-certified inspectors who can inspect your robots and tell you the issues.

2. Teams will have 6 hours, divided up into a max of three individual instances, where they can unbag the robot and work on it.

The district model is still being refined, so these may change slightly, but I've posted the gist of it.

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by khanh111

The Pacific Northwest is switching to a district model this year. Two main changes to bag n' tag will apply for us. These are in the interest of saving time that would otherwise be used on competition day.

1. There will be FIRST-certified inspectors who can inspect your robots and tell you the issues.

2. Teams will have 6 hours, divided up into a max of three individual instances, where they can unbag the robot and work on it.

The district model is still being refined, so these may change slightly, but I've posted the gist of it.

So, just to be clear, the inspectors inspect your robot while it would normally be bagged, or the inspectors make sure it's bagged and unbagged for the right lengths of time?

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by DampRobot

So, just to be clear, the inspectors inspect your robot while it would normally be bagged, or the inspectors make sure it's bagged and unbagged for the right lengths of time?

From what I got from the webcast, the intent is to have inspectors looking at robots prior to the district events so that teams can more easily pass inspection in the abbreviated practice time at a district versus the full day we have traditionally had at regionals. It sounded as if the details were very much a work in progress, but that HQ was very interested in the idea and making it work.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

From what I got from the webcast, the intent is to have inspectors looking at robots prior to the district events so that teams can more easily pass inspection in the abbreviated practice time at a district versus the full day we have traditionally had at regionals. It sounded as if the details were very much a work in progress, but that HQ was very interested in the idea and making it work.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, it's an opportunity to use your 6 hour unbag time(which existed in FiM and MAR) and go to a predetermined location where you can (essentially) go through a preliminary, unofficial inspection by official FIRST inspectors?

[BrendanB]

Last week we got an email from our director for NH & VT saying that in the NEFIRST model the day before your competitions from 5-10 (preliminary and subject to change) teams are allowed to load in their event, pits open, and get inspected. Robots enter the event that evening bagged and at the conclusion of the event leave bagged. There has been talk of the 6 hour work window as used in Michingan and MAR but nothing official has been said. It sounds like this method is becoming standard for the two day district events.

[JohnBoucher]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

before your first competition from 5-10 (preliminary and subject to change)

Suggesting inspections will be different at your second event?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher

Suggesting inspections will be different at your second event?

Meant to say "first day of competition". Fixed now.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by khanh111

The Pacific Northwest is switching to a district model this year. Two main changes to bag n' tag will apply for us. These are in the interest of saving time that would otherwise be used on competition day.

1. There will be FIRST-certified inspectors who can inspect your robots and tell you the issues.

2. Teams will have 6 hours, divided up into a max of three individual instances, where they can unbag the robot and work on it.

The district model is still being refined, so these may change slightly, but I've posted the gist of it.

1. This is something that the PNW district has asked for, it is still under consideration by FIRST headquarters.

2. The 6 hour un-bag time in the week preceding your district events was what was done last season in FiM and MAR. The minimum un-bag time is 2hrs per opening of the bag. So you could do 3-2 hr sessions, 2-3hr, 1-4hr + 1-2hr or 1-6hr. This is unlikely to change as it represents a change from the 8hr un-bag time that was used in the first years of the FiM district.

Originally Posted by DampRobot

So, just to be clear, the inspectors inspect your robot while it would normally be bagged, or the inspectors make sure it's bagged and unbagged for the right lengths of time?

This would be an additional un-bagged time in which teams are not allowed to do any work on the robot, nor power it up other than as necessary for inspection, for example to verify proper operation of a pneumatics system.

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

So, if I'm reading this correctly, it's an opportunity to use your 6 hour unbag time(which existed in FiM and MAR) and go to a predetermined location where you can (essentially) go through a preliminary, unofficial inspection by official FIRST inspectors?

As mentioned above it is in addition to the 6hrs of un-bag time to work on the robot.

What the PNW district is proposing that we would come up with a number of places where teams could bring their robot to have it officially pre-inspected, it would be done by official FIRST inspectors and the document would then be brought to the event where the inspection would be completed. The goal would be to catch potential problem areas so team can use some of their 6hr un-bag time to fix problems.

Since the goal is for all districts to have the same rules, starting this season, I would fully expect all districts to have this option IF FIRST approves of it.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Mr V

What the PNW district is proposing that we would come up with a number of places where teams could bring their robot to have it officially pre-inspected, it would be done by official FIRST inspectors and the document would then be brought to the event where the inspection would be completed. The goal would be to catch potential problem areas so team can use some of their 6hr un-bag time to fix problems.

Since the goal is for all districts to have the same rules, starting this season, I would fully expect all districts to have this option IF FIRST approves of it.

The only problem I see with having it be an official FIRST document is that if teams don't use the last of their unbag time during this "event"(for example, my HS team sometimes used our final two hours the morning of load-in), what's to stop them(yes, I'm being somewhat cynical) from modifying after inspection?

I think this makes perfect sense in an informal sense(ie. an official FIRST inspector does an informal inspection with no official paperwork other than unbag form), but I think it's being overly cautious towards an extremely rare problem. In my two years of MAR, never have I seen the cause of failing inspection prior to the start of matches be because of lack of time at the event. It's definitely a good idea for being an informal pre-competition, communal unbag "meeting/event"

[Taylor]

My reading of this suggests that this initial unbag time will not serve as an official inspection; it will be a pre-inspection to alert teams to issues that may make the official inspection more difficult.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Everyone,
We know that some teams will not use their time wisely but the hope with this method is to reduce the time it takes to get everyone ready to play. From an inspector's standpoint, our worst nightmare is having a robot come in the wrong size or over weight. Getting a few hours to work on the solution before an event will help everyone have a better experience.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

The only problem I see with having it be an official FIRST document is that if teams don't use the last of their unbag time during this "event"(for example, my HS team sometimes used our final two hours the morning of load-in), what's to stop them(yes, I'm being somewhat cynical) from modifying after inspection?

I think this makes perfect sense in an informal sense(ie. an official FIRST inspector does an informal inspection with no official paperwork other than unbag form), but I think it's being overly cautious towards an extremely rare problem. In my two years of MAR, never have I seen the cause of failing inspection prior to the start of matches be because of lack of time at the event. It's definitely a good idea for being an informal pre-competition, communal unbag "meeting/event"

What's to stop a team from modifying a robot after any inspection?

I'd work as an inspector a bit before saying the timecrunch is not a problem. Inspectors often have to go crazy to get those last few teams to pass. Some teams have no sense of urgency when they are far from being legal, with only 30 minutes left in the day....

[EricH]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

In my two years of MAR, never have I seen the cause of failing inspection prior to the start of matches be because of lack of time at the event.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

What's to stop a team from modifying a robot after any inspection?

I'd work as an inspector a bit before saying the timecrunch is not a problem. Inspectors often have to go crazy to get those last few teams to pass. Some teams have no sense of urgency when they are far from being legal, with only 30 minutes left in the day....

Listen to Adam. I was about to say that, because I HAVE seen teams unable to make their first few matches because they did not pass inspection, due to a robot problem, even with the inspectors working with them to solve their issues. And did I mention that this was with an extended inspection time because the inspectors were few in number?


And after any inspection, teams can (and do!) modify their robots. If the modification involves adding something or changing a dimension and it could affect legality, the team is supposed to check with the inspectors before their next match--9/10 times, the inspectors will walk over, go "You're good", and walk away. Most of the rest will be weight checks. (I think one of the folks commenting on this thread got bitten by not informing the inspectors of a change that brought the robot's weight up too high... but still made weight for elims after a hectic lunch break.)

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricH

-9/10 times, the inspectors will walk over, go "You're good", and walk away.

The precedent set last year is that this is not an inspection. I'd force the inspector to note on your form, or notify the lead inspector, if you're concerned. Not worth the Red Card.