Question about carts

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I think this is a problem. They are supposed to be Safety Advisors. Not inspectors. Unless they can point to a rule (either in the FRC manual, the venue guidelines, or something like the NEC), I do not believe their opinions should be considered any more binding than those of any other volunteer.

I have seen a Safety Advisor tell a student he must wear gloves when using a power drill. I have had Safety Advisors tell me they wanted to encourage the practice of continuously shouting "Robot!" when moving a robot anywhere outside a pit. I do not take them for granted, but neither do I take them as law.

I agree. However I often find that sorting out something like all these battery powered carts is best done by FIRST. I really don't want to sit there with someone trying to make or break the case of whatever the situation is. I think the more people get asked the bigger the official/unofficial knot.

FIRST can easily settle this by addressing what they will and will not tolerate on those carts as far as batteries. If the non-FRC style batteries are allowed then the specifics can be worked out, specified or left to the people at the event. I am 'up in the air' over it as far as safety is concerned. I see the risk and also I see the ways it could be done safe enough.

If FIRST gives an answer it just leaves more time to deal with so many other issues.

Stuff like this turns into the 'bag and tag' debacle.
Bags with no tags or tags with no bags.
People worried they will get 'busted' at the next event.
Was such a headache at Mount Olive we had to call in for official response.
No issue with the idea...just no resources to comply with it.

[fb39ca4]

Our cart is on a motorized wheelchair base, and that has a pretty big battery, and we have never gotten any trouble for it, so I would say the battery isn't really an issue.

[protoserge]

Originally Posted by fb39ca4

Our cart is on a motorized wheelchair base, and that has a pretty big battery, and we have never gotten any trouble for it, so I would say the battery isn't really an issue.

Are you using a non-sealed lead-acid battery or a sealed type like that on the robot? The initial suggested battery (by the way, the OP is no longer considering this option) was a deep cycle spillable lead-acid battery. Lead-acid batteries product hydrogen while charging and are a potential safety hazard given certain conditions.

I don't see a problem with using a motorized cart, so long as appropriate design considerations are made: speed is no faster than a moderate walking pace, a dead man switch or emergency stop is in place, a beeper/flasher or other acoustic or visual device to inform those around that it is powered, and the batteries of the sealed, non-spillable type. In my opinion, however, it adds needless complexity and weight to what I believe is a very simple device.

[MrBasse]

Originally Posted by stinglikeabee

Are you using a non-sealed lead-acid battery or a sealed type like that on the robot? The initial suggested battery (by the way, the OP is no longer considering this option) was a deep cycle spillable lead-acid battery. Lead-acid batteries product hydrogen while charging and are a potential safety hazard given certain conditions.
.

Given the culture of safety that is built into FIRST competitions, I'd like to hope we have the respect for other teams to think that they would take into consideration items like this. The general idea between using a large deep cycle battery is to gain the benefit of a large reserve capacity so charging at an event should be a non-issue. With that said, even if you are charging a battery at an event, charging in an open area like a gymnasium or similar area should be another non-issue as long as there is some ventilation.

There are some things that I can agree the rules should address. I don't think that this is one of them. There are enough people at a competition to observe and make recommendations about safety aspects. I don't want to see the rule book increasing in size again after it was shrunk down. It's hard enough to get kids to read the whole thing the amount of times that I ask them to.

If we ask for rules on every last item that could ever prevent the slightest possibility of an unsafe condition, we run the risk of crushing opportunities for innovation. Im not saying I'm not in support of a perfectly safe environment, just that if the people who make the final call are in New Hampshire, it would be hard to judge a system they have never seen or witnessed operating. We have had a number of things that have been quoted to us as safety law that I would never let a student do for fear of personal injury. I don't even want to start thinking about the event electrical wiring set-ups at some of the events I've been to in the past three years...

[chmconkling]

It is NOT a FIRST rule, it is a event and safety advisor rule. Some events are held on a floor that have a sensitive floor to acid type chemicals(ex. Basketball arenas). FIRST knows this and has ways of covering the damages from a robot, but not a battery to charge your cart.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by chmconkling

It is NOT a FIRST rule, it is a event and safety advisor rule.

There is no such thing as a "safety advisor rule". The green-shirted volunteers are there to give advice and promote best practices. They do not have the authority to make rules.

I'll go along with venue restrictions beyond what's in the FRC manual, as long as they actually come from representatives of the venue.

[techhelpbb]

If FIRST is okay with venue restrictions that vary they ought to clarify that sort of thing.

It makes it hard to build unique things when you wonder if you'll make it half way through the season before finding yourself having to take it all apart.

At least if we know that some venues allow nonFIRST style batteries on the carts and others do not; people will know to ask the question about the venue at that level.

Let us not forget there are plenty of rookies. It is not really fair to them that they have to guess about things like that either. They may not know the venues or even who to ask.

There are really 3 answers to this: yes, no, maybe

As far as the size of the manual. I worry more about the quality than the quantity.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

If FIRST is okay with venue restrictions that vary they ought to clarify that sort of thing.

They do. I've seen it in the past few years of the Administrative Manual, at the end of section 4. Here's an excerpt:

"Please read the following common site restrictions and adhere to them in order to promote an orderly, safe, pleasant and exciting competition. Please refer to Section 4.2 of this manual section for additional site restrictions at your event."

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

They do. I've seen it in the past few years of the Administrative Manual, at the end of section 4. Here's an excerpt:

"Please read the following common site restrictions and adhere to them in order to promote an orderly, safe, pleasant and exciting competition. Please refer to Section 4.2 of this manual section for additional site restrictions at your event."

This is true and section 4.2.2 defines a bunch of loose parameters for the carts at the events. With only this mention of electrical safety:

"Do not add music or other sound devices to the cart; and"

That is definitely a rule that has been ignored in the past.
Though no mention of other electrical apparatus on carts.