Poll: Views on the 6 Week Build Season

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

If less is better, then why not 3 or 4 weeks?

There's a minimum here too, so, let's take a build season:

1 week of prototyping is good. And it lets teams iterate a few ideas.
1 week design
1 week waiting for parts/fabricating parts
1 week assembling
1 week testing
1 week iterating

Anything less than 6 and you are removing crucial parts of the design process (ok, waiting on parts isn't crucial but it's unavoidable).

[who716]

personally I think it's to long by about a week in a half, this is 100% biased though based on our teams goals.

[moogboy]

6 weeks is about as far as a good student can go before they completely break down and lose the ability to succeed in school. I know, I did it. Over the six week build season I tended to have a manageably small number of big assignments-papers, difficult tests, etc. There were plenty of options for the ACT/SAT that didn't interfere with the build season, and if school work suffered because of robotics, I could catch up. Every student is different, and so is every school, so YMMV, but that's why I like six week build seasons.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

3 days

Seconded

I can be fairly confident that anyone voting 7 weeks or more is not a mentor. A mentor with a family, job, life, bills, a house that needs maintenance, a car that also needs maintenance, and the other trappings of life as we know it.

6 weeks is already too long. We all know it can be done in 3 days, so that's my vote.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

Seconded

I can be fairly confident that anyone voting 7 weeks or more is not a mentor. A mentor with a family, job, life, bills, a house that needs maintenance, a car that also needs maintenance, and the other trappings of life as we know it.

6 weeks is already too long. We all know it can be done in 3 days, so that's my vote.

I voted for 10+ and am a mentor with everything you mentioned minus a house that need maintenance.

Having a build season that doesn't have a stop build day would just represent what many top level teams area already doing with practice bots, extending the build season way past the 6 weeks. Saying that the current build season is 6 weeks is a lie and its time to update the build season schedule to match what teams are already doing. It will save teams money(not having to build a 2nd robot) and hopefully save teams sanity(take more time off during build to relax as teams are in less of a time crunch. Not all teams and everybody will take time off but there are plenty who will.)

[Siri]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I voted for 10+ and am a mentor with everything you mentioned minus a house that need maintenance.

Having a build season that doesn't have a stop build day would just represent what many top level teams area already doing with practice bots, extending the build season way past the 6 weeks. Saying that the current build season is 6 weeks is a lie and its time to update the build season schedule to match what teams are already doing. It will save teams money(not having to build a 2nd robot) and hopefully save teams sanity(take more time off during build to relax as teams are in less of a time crunch. Not all teams and everybody will take time off but there are plenty who will.)

Same vote, same reason (well, minus dependents but with the addition of classes as well as a job). I run a 3-hour-one-way commute to my team every weekend in build, plus usually 6-hours-in-one-night at least one night a week. I wouldn't do that in a 10 week build if you paid me, and I'd be ecstatic about it. Perhaps an extreme case, but if you're willing to work to defy Parkinson's Law, 10+ (no stop build) has incredible upsides.

[Carl C]

Any longer than six weeks, and we would get even more burnt out than we already do!

[AllenGregoryIV]

I voted 10+, I didn't like shipping the robot when I was a student and I don't like bagging the robot now that I am a mentor.

There will always be a deadline, it will just be the same as off season events, your first match.

[Kevin Pardus]

The 6.5-week Build Season does not seem to be a maintainable option in the near future.

Since the 2010 FRC Season, the number of competition weeks and events has increased significantly (see chart below). The FIRST Championship (CMP) seems to have been pushed back as far as it can go. The VEX World Championship (17-20 Apr 2013, 23-26 Apr 2014, and 22-25 Apr 2015) now basically coincides with FIRST's CMP dates.

It is very safe to say that more Regional-Region and District events will be added in the coming years. FiM now has 12 District events scheduled for the 2014 season, while PNW has 10. Once FiM, PNW or another Region reaches the need for 13 or more District events within its Region; I think more competition weeks will be needed, since it will be very hard for a Region to manage 3 District events on a single weekend. If the 6.5-week Build Season is to be maintained, it will mean a December Kick-off and Start Date for future Build Seasons. It also means you are going to have a Build Season that will overlap most High School Winter Breaks (may not be a good idea) or have to enforce an arbitrary Stop-build period over the Holiday Season.

The increase in the number of competition weeks and events also needs to consider the possibility of Super-Regionals or Intermediate Championships being added to the FRC tournament advancement structure, as has been done for FTC this competition season. VEX VRC has changed their tournament advancement structure this season as well; it now includes a State Championship level for advancement to the VEX World Championship. So eventually, we could end up with a November Kick-off and Start Date for future Build Seasons or just might end-up going year-round.


Season / Weeks / Competition Dates / # Regionals / # Region CMPs / Districts / FIRST CMP Dates / Total Events

2010 / 5 / 04 Mar-03 Apr / 43 / 1 / 07 / 15-17 Apr / 52
2011 / 6 / 03 Mar-09 Apr / 48 / 1 / 09 / 27-30 Apr / 59
2012 / 7 / 01 Mar-14 Apr / 52 / 2 / 15 / 25-28 Apr / 70
2013 / 7 / 28 Feb-13 Apr / 58 / 2 / 17 / 24-27 Apr / 78
2014 / 7 / 27 Feb-12 Apr / 54 / 4 / 37 / 23-26 Apr / 96

Regions: FiM, MAR, FINE, & PNW

[Pault]

Originally Posted by Kevin Pardus

The 6.5-week Build Season does not seem to be a maintainable option in the near future.

Since the 2010 FRC Season, the number of competition weeks and events has increased significantly (see chart below). The FIRST Championship (CMP) seems to have been pushed back as far as it can go. The VEX World Championship (17-20 Apr 2013, 23-26 Apr 2014, and 22-25 Apr 2015) now basically coincides with FIRST's CMP dates.

It is very safe to say that more Regional-Region and District events will be added in the coming years. FiM now has 12 District events scheduled for the 2014 season, while PNW has 10. Once FiM, PNW or another Region reaches the need for 13 or more District events within its Region; I think more competition weeks will be needed, since it will be very hard for a Region to manage 3 District events on a single weekend. If the 6.5-week Build Season is to be maintained, it will mean a December Kick-off and Start Date for future Build Seasons. It also means you are going to have a Build Season that will overlap most High School Winter Breaks (may not be a good idea) or have to enforce an arbitrary Stop-build period over the Holiday Season.

The increase in the number of competition weeks and events also needs to consider the possibility of Super-Regionals or Intermediate Championships being added to the FRC tournament advancement structure, as has been done for FTC this competition season. VEX VRC has changed their tournament advancement structure this season as well; it now includes a State Championship level for advancement to the VEX World Championship. So eventually, we could end up with a November Kick-off and Start Date for future Build Seasons or just might end-up going year-round.


Season / Weeks / Competition Dates / # Regionals / # Region CMPs / Districts / FIRST CMP Dates / Total Events

2010 / 5 / 04 Mar-03 Apr / 43 / 1 / 07 / 15-17 Apr / 52
2011 / 6 / 03 Mar-09 Apr / 48 / 1 / 09 / 27-30 Apr / 59
2012 / 7 / 01 Mar-14 Apr / 52 / 2 / 15 / 25-28 Apr / 70
2013 / 7 / 28 Feb-13 Apr / 58 / 2 / 17 / 24-27 Apr / 78
2014 / 7 / 27 Feb-12 Apr / 54 / 4 / 37 / 23-26 Apr / 96

Regions: FiM, MAR, FINE, & PNW

Or... we could just push the championships back into May. Why not?

And eventually we are going to need to have more events per weekend. The only limitation to this that I can think of is lack of volunteers (yes it would cost more money, but that is what districts are solving). However the solution isn't to add more weeks so that volunteers can volunteer at more events, that is just asking far too much of them.

I just don't understand why this is an issue to you. But whatever the issue is, adding more competition weeks is a temporary solution to a permanent problem.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Pault

Or... we could just push the championships back into May. Why not?

AP, IB, and state testing.

[moogboy]

Originally Posted by Pault

Or... we could just push the championships back into May. Why not?

In states like Michigan where public schools are by law required to start after Labor Day (meaning they finish in mid June), that's reasonable. I think it's somewhat common for seniors to get out early (correct me if I'm wrong), however. For my school (and as a private school, we started in mid to late August) that meant that seniors finals happened in mid May. Say what you will about seniors giving up and not caring about anything at that point, but it would be painfully difficult for any senior to crack a book of any kind at champs from what I've heard. And what if finals fell on the week after worlds? having worlds at the end of April is about as far back as it could be pushed for seniors who get out in May, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Kevin Pardus

It is very safe to say that more Regional-Region and District events will be added in the coming years. FiM now has 12 District events scheduled for the 2014 season, while PNW has 10. Once FiM, PNW or another Region reaches the need for 13 or more District events within its Region; I think more competition weeks will be needed, since it will be very hard for a Region to manage 3 District events on a single weekend. If the 6.5-week Build Season is to be maintained, it will mean a December Kick-off and Start Date for future Build Seasons. It also means you are going to have a Build Season that will overlap most High School Winter Breaks (may not be a good idea) or have to enforce an arbitrary Stop-build period over the Holiday Season.

I would kill for the chance to work on the challenge over winter break. Again, this is a goofy side effect of the school I went to, but we have always had kickoff, followed by first semester finals starting the monday/tuesday after kickoff. 2013 was a fluke in that we had a whole week between kickoff and finals, but no matter how you look at it, the stress of finals combined with the start of building a robot takes a toll on a team. If we had our Christmas/New Year's break to work on our robot, that would be a massive, fantastic boon. It's always difficult to wrangle students during breaks, but since teams have established patterns of extremely long days on weekends when students have homework and everything else pulling at their time, I don't think it's unreasonable.

[Pault]

Originally Posted by moogboy

In states like Michigan where public schools are by law required to start after Labor Day (meaning they finish in mid June), that's reasonable. I think it's somewhat common for seniors to get out early (correct me if I'm wrong), however. For my school (and as a private school, we started in mid to late August) that meant that seniors finals happened in mid May. Say what you will about seniors giving up and not caring about anything at that point, but it would be painfully difficult for any senior to crack a book of any kind at champs from what I've heard. And what if finals fell on the week after worlds? having worlds at the end of April is about as far back as it could be pushed for seniors who get out in May, in my opinion.

Your right, I forgot about the seniors. My school is the same way. But I still feel like winter break could cause a lot of problems for some teams (especially teams who are actually based off of a class in school).

[mdituri]

Originally Posted by Pault

Your right, I forgot about the seniors. My school is the same way. But I still feel like winter break could cause a lot of problems for some teams (especially teams who are actually based off of a class in school).

I have always thought about having build season be in November and December including the holidays, but it would be incredibly difficult for teams who are school based; some schools cannot meet if their school is closed.

I would love to see:
Build in Nov/Dec. Districts in January/February. Regionals and Regional Championships in February/March. Worlds in April with more than 2 weeks to get airline tickets.

We can't go into May for many reasons, including AP testing.

[bduddy]

6 weeks... a real 6 weeks. Clamp down on all that other stuff teams do between then and the competition. It's already an honor system anyway, so why not?