FRC Blogged - Something New – FIRST Dean’s List Changes

[bardd]

Originally Posted by Karthik

That being said, Canadian teams will just nominate these deserving seniors one year earlier. By no means is this a deal breaker.

True, but you could say the same about American teams being able to submit seniors. They could do it a year earlier, and there's still a limitation.
The older the achievement, the less impressive it appears. A year may not be a long time, but it can still have a big difference on the way those you're trying to impress (colleges in that case) look at your Dean's List Finalist status. I learned that on my flesh (through a different achievement, not Dean's List).

[Rosiebotboss]

Ok Frank....you tell me that you read CD.

Did you take a poll, conduct a focus group, ask specific mentors or gather inputs from the FRC field regarding these changes? The internationals, Israel, Canada etc...have different systems as evidenced by Karthik and bardd.

You have my number.

[Blackphantom91]

I feel the way to fix this honestly for the seniors that are now currently in session is to wait to make this change till 2015 season, so all current seniors wouldn't be effected. Afterward you nominate your deans list candidate in the summer or before school is in session.

All though the award of sophomores and juniors is a smart go; just the timing was pretty wrong for those teams nominating seniors. We don't have canada tech here to do what they do.

[LeelandS]

I could appreciate when FIRST encouraged teams to nominate Sophomore and Junior students for the Dean's List award. Dean's List is a great honor and a great asset on a college application. So I understand why FIRST did what it did.

But Dean's List is largely about recognizing a student's contribution to the program. About recognizing a student who poured their soul into the program, to spread FIRST to the community and to generally further the goals of FIRST. This is an award that should be ageless. By limiting to ages, FIRST could be passing over some very deserving seniors.

Encouraging teams to nominate Sophomores and Juniors was a good effort, but forcing teams to do so just seems wrong to me...

That said, I really like the interview process! It'll probably put a bit of extra strain on the judging staff, but I think it'll be worth it. I really like this addition!

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Blackphantom91

I feel the way to fix this honestly for the seniors that are now currently in session is to wait to make this change till 2015 season, so all current seniors wouldn't be effected. Afterward you nominate your deans list candidate in the summer or before school is in session.

Doing this, though, just sucks the system into an endless cycle of waiting till next year to allow current seniors the chance at winning. Like if you allow 2014 seniors the chance, then you take away the chance for 2014 juniors. Then in 2015 you'd have to allow 2015 seniors but then you'd take away 2015 juniors. You see the endless cycle?

I think a better way they could have approached this would have been to implement the interview process and tell teams that it might be better to try and put up sophomores and juniors but keep it open for everyone; I, like many others, do believe that more students become who they are on teams when they are seniors.

[Alan Anderson]

I'm not happy with the fact that some of the most deserving team members are suddenly ineligible. The obvious fix is to push the "no Seniors" rule out another year. My suggestion to address the "endless cycle" problem dodar pointed out would be to permit teams to nominate three students this year instead of two (perhaps giving that privilege only to teams who nominated a senior last year).

As a Senior who has been dreaming of possibly winning this award since Freshman year: This sucks.

I'm not trying to sound selfish, because I'm sure there are other seniors who feel the same way. This award was a big goal of mine, and I'm really disappointed that neither I, nor any of the amazing seniors this year, will have the chance to be rewarded and recognized for our hard work.

[FrankJ]

I remember this going around at championships so it is not a new idea. Still I can see current seniors not liking it. The issue with having spit age range.. Juniors in the states & senior equivalent elsewhere would make judging it a lot more difficult since seniors will have one more year of accomplishment.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

As a Senior who has been dreaming of possibly winning this award since Freshman year: This sucks.

I'm not trying to sound selfish, because I'm sure there are other seniors who feel the same way. This award was a big goal of mine, and I'm really disappointed that neither I, nor any of the amazing seniors this year, will have the chance to be rewarded and recognized for our hard work.

I'm in the same boat.

I think the Dean's List Award is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis. On one hand, it recognizes technical and leadership skills, as well as recognizing contributions to teams/the FIRST program, and on the other hand, it seems like FIRST is really obsessed with getting Dean's List winners/finalists recognized by colleges. I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive necessarily, but there are some contradictions at the edge cases.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed with the decision. But I suppose some of us must lose out for FIRST to pursue its higher goals.

[avanboekel]

I really like the addition of the interview as it puts a face to the name of each of the candidates. However, I really don't like the idea of seniors not being able to win the award. IMO, this puts too much emphasis on it being an award to show to colleges, and not something that your team nominated you for after 3-4 years of hard work. It devalues the Dean's List Award.

[Pault]

First, like everyone else, I loved the Interview part. It just makes sense.

But... I just don't like the no seniors part. At first I thought it makes sense, but between the international teams and the really exceptional seniors in FIRST I cannot agree with it. My ideal system would be that during the judging process a HUGE priority would placed on people who could use this for college applications. This gets rid of the international problem, and makes it so that if there is a senior who deserves it substantially more than everybody else he would still have a chance.

[Karthik]

One thing I didn't mention in my original post is that I really like the addition of the interviews. Logistical concerns aside, the interview process will help ensure the best candidates are chosen. Consider this wording from the 2013 description of the Dean's List Award:

Originally Posted by 2013 FIRST Admin Manual

...it is FIRST’s intention that they will continue on, post-award, as great leaders of FIRST’s ever growing student alumni and as advocates of FIRST.

If the award is looking to recognize people who will be advocates of FIRST well into the future, you want to choose students who have a demonstrated ability to sell the program. One of the best ways to judge this is to speak to the students directly to gauge not only their passion and dedication to FIRST, but their ability to evangelize the program. This will ensure that students who are much more than can be seen from a 4,000 character essay, get properly recognized.

Originally Posted by Andrew Lawrence

As a Senior who has been dreaming of possibly winning this award since Freshman year: This sucks.

I'm not trying to sound selfish, because I'm sure there are other seniors who feel the same way. This award was a big goal of mine, and I'm really disappointed that neither I, nor any of the amazing seniors this year, will have the chance to be rewarded and recognized for our hard work.

By no means am I trying to sound harsh here, but as disappointing as it is for you to no longer be eligible for this award, it's not like you never had a chance. You were very eligible in your Junior year, with FIRST strongly urging all teams to nominate Juniors. See below.

Originally Posted by 2013 FIRST Admin Manual

Teams nominating students as FIRST Dean’s List Entrants/Nominees should note that colleges and universities are extremely interested in recruiting FIRST Dean’s List Award students and accordingly, FIRST strongly urges teams to nominate a student in his or her junior year as a FIRST Dean’s List Semi-Finalist.

Originally Posted by Karthik

By no means am I trying to sound harsh here, but as disappointing as it is for you to no longer be eligible for this award, it's not like you never had a chance. You were very eligible in your Junior year, with FIRST strongly urging all teams to nominate Juniors. See below.

I completely understand - and agree. My team just nominates seniors because they've impacted the team and community and represented the ideals of FIRST the most (what the award is supposed to celebrate).

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by avanboekel

IMO, this puts too much emphasis on it being an award to show to colleges, and not something that your team nominated you for after 3-4 years of hard work.

It also puts quite a restriction on teams who don't get students for 3-4 years. 190 (Junior/Senior high school only) and 1717 (Seniors only team, IIRC) come to mind. For 190, they can only nominate Juniors, which are on their first year on the team. 1717 is all seniors, so they can never nominate anyone.

I understand the rationale, and I'm all for strongly encouraging Sophomore and Junior nominations, but making it a hard rule seems a little ignorant of the fact that not all teams are in a position where a Sophomore/Junior nomination makes sense, or is even possible.

[Siri]

I'm not quite ready to jump on the "the interviews rock" bandwagon yet. Well, no, actually, I think the interviews do rock, but this sentences worries me quite a bit:

Originally Posted by Frank's Blog

For Districts, as no Finalists are selected at the District competition level, nominees will participate in brief interviews at the District/State Championship level where their selection takes place.

As Madison and Devon pointed out, I would hate--and argue we should all dislike--if any nominees non-DChamp teams cannot logistically get to their interview. For those that don't know, there were something like 200 teams in 2013, ~50 MAR, ~150 FiM, that would not have been at an event with DL judging. (Note that I'm not asking how many non-Championship nominees have become finalists. To be honest, I'd be surprised if it was that many, but it shouldn't matter. Every one deserves the shot they earned.)

I hope they allow something like Skype/phone, but if not, I'd like to issue a call to action for all district teams. So MAR and FiM, and yes, for the very-full plates of new PNW and NEFIRST: Let's make sure every nominee that wants to do their interview can get there. FIRST has handed us another imperative for a grassroots effort--lucky us districters are so experienced at those now. I see some "adopt a DL nominee for Champs" programs in our future. But really, who wouldn't want to do that?


EDIT: I'm liking the "one required/one optional" method for senior/junior.