Championship Location Announced

[magnets]

I like St. Louis, and we shouldn't complain about it, because it's a great place, and we don't know all the reasons that FIRST chose this location.

It's near a big airport, it's a pretty safe place, and there are plenty of great hotels in the area. The actual seating is really great, and the arena is very impressive. There's enough room for FIRST to get bigger if it needs to. In the area, there are a number of really neat restaurants that we always go to, and going up the arch is always a team favorite. I imagine that it is also cheaper/easier for FIRST, as they don't have to negotiate all the details with a new place, and they can keep everything mostly the same.

The food during the event is not great, but I don't remember ever being impressed anywhere else. As for the finale, that's not a problem with the location, but with FIRST's organization.

Having consistency is actually a good thing.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by magnets

I like St. Louis, and we shouldn't complain about it, because it's a great place, and we don't know all the reasons that FIRST chose this location.

It's near a big airport, it's a pretty safe place, and there are plenty of great hotels in the area. The actual seating is really great, and the arena is very impressive. There's enough room for FIRST to get bigger if it needs to. In the area, there are a number of really neat restaurants that we always go to, and going up the arch is always a team favorite. I imagine that it is also cheaper/easier for FIRST, as they don't have to negotiate all the details with a new place, and they can keep everything mostly the same.

The food during the event is not great, but I don't remember ever being impressed anywhere else. As for the finale, that's not a problem with the location, but with FIRST's organization.

Having consistency is actually a good thing.

I disagree with this, though. St. Louis's airport isn't nearly as big as Atlanta or Indy, the convention center is extremely cramped as it is, and there is absolutely no space to spread out like there was in Atlanta. Space was everywhere, and we only used half of the facilities there. Also, Atlanta had a great finale location, and the past finales in St. Louis were absolutely terrible and a logistical nightmare. It is actually a problem with the location because it takes over an hour to get there, and the place physically cannot hold the number of people that we have. Plus, the staff there was completely rude and the opposite of helpful. We walked away from that venue practically in tears because of the way we were treated.

I mean, I understand that there are obviously reasons that they chose it over the other candidates, but the only thing they said was that they were "impressed with the facilities," but everyone that I have talked to that saw the championship in Atlanta completely disagrees.

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

Just something to much on.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I disagree with this, though. St. Louis's airport isn't nearly as big as Atlanta or Indy, the convention center is extremely cramped as it is, and there is absolutely no space to spread out like there was in Atlanta. Space was everywhere, and we only used half of the facilities there. Also, Atlanta had a great finale location, and the past finales in St. Louis were absolutely terrible and a logistical nightmare. It is actually a problem with the location because it takes over an hour to get there, and the place physically cannot hold the number of people that we have. Plus, the staff there was completely rude and the opposite of helpful. We walked away from that venue practically in tears because of the way we were treated.

I mean, I understand that there are obviously reasons that they chose it over the other candidates, but the only thing they said was that they were "impressed with the facilities," but everyone that I have talked to that saw the championship in Atlanta completely disagrees.

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

Just something to much on.

Totally agree. In most of the key areas that are needed to be looked at for Champs, it seems like Atlanta is ahead of St. Louis.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I disagree with this, though. St. Louis's airport isn't nearly as big as Atlanta or Indy...

Yes, Atlanta Hartsfield is much bigger, but the other part of this statement is completely false. St. Louis Lambert is 27.5% larger than Indy based on number of passenger flights (255,276 for STL vs 200,253 for IND), and 25% larger than Indy based on number of gates (50 for STL vs. 40 for IND)

I have been to all FIRST championship locations, and I prefer St. Louis to Atlanta.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

Absolutely not true. So many people's perspectives go into these decisions, from all different backgrounds. Volunteers, team participants, FIRST staff/officials, VIPs, event managers - they are looking at all angles.

Originally Posted by Racer26

Teams need more than 8 qualification matches.

We need more than 400 teams at CMP.

With the current 4-field structure, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

I will echo another post above me - Why do we "need" 400+?
(We DEFINITELY need more than 8 matches per team. That was unacceptable.)

[Rosiebotboss]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about! I am one of those persons of which you speak. These people arrive on Monday and leave on Sunday, working 12, 13, 14 15 hour days. And many of them are VOLUNTEERS....Yes, that is a pretty full week, so you can have the top quality event you are complaining about.

What specific ideas would you bring to the table to improve the event? Email them to frcteams@usfirst.org or me directly and I will forward them myself, unalderterated. And post them here so all can see.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might be asked to be on the committee!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Libby K

^ This. There's no easy-way of saying this, but let's be real. Sponsors who give thousands (and in some cases millions) of dollars to FIRST - in direct sponsorship, mentorship, whatever the case may be - are going to get a focus when it comes to designing some portions of the Championship experience.

That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some big improvements in the team experience (the biggest example being the wrap-party this year, but that's already been addressed in statements from FIRST)... It's just worth mentioning that yes, VIPs are going to get some things tailored to them. This should not be news to anyone with a realistic mindset about things.

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about! I am one of those persons of which you speak. These people arrive on Monday and leave on Sunday, working 12, 13, 14 15 hour days. And many of them are VOLUNTEERS....Yes, that is a pretty full week, so you can have the top quality event you are complaining about.

What specific ideas would you bring to the table to improve the event? Email them to frcteams@usfirst.org or me directly and I will forward them myself, unalderterated. And post them here so all can see.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might be asked to be on the committee!

To build off of what Libby and Rosiebotboss have stated.

Many of the FIRST staff, like Frank, are out "on the floor" for almost all of their time at CMP barely having enough time to stop and eat during their sometimes 15 or 16 hour days. Yes some of the staff is dedicated to the VIP and press areas. However that is because they do need to take care of the VIPs from the sponsor organizations and people from potential future sponsors. The fact is w/o those sponsors, FIRST as we know it, would not exist. Sure as teams we bear a lot of the cost of participating but not the full cost. FIRST does try its best to provide the best possible experience for teams, but we MUST celebrate our current sponsors, and recruit new sponsors that make it possible. I assure you that the overall team experience at CMP is a top priority for FIRST.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Mr V

To build off of what Libby and Rosiebotboss have stated.

Many of the FIRST staff, like Frank, are out "on the floor" for almost all of their time at CMP barely having enough time to stop and eat during their sometimes 15 or 16 hour days. Yes some of the staff is dedicated to the VIP and press areas. However that is because they do need to take care of the VIPs from the sponsor organizations and people from potential future sponsors. The fact is w/o those sponsors, FIRST as we know it, would not exist. Sure as teams we bear a lot of the cost of participating but not the full cost. FIRST does try its best to provide the best possible experience for teams, but we MUST celebrate our current sponsors, and recruit new sponsors that make it possible. I assure you that the overall team experience at CMP is a top priority for FIRST.

I've said this before. The fundamental issue, though, is that they don't have to deal with organizing 20-60+ youth and their parents in this venue. It was much easier to do so in Atlanta than in St. Louis. In fact in STL it's virtually impossible to stick together as a team because the layout is so cramped, convoluted, and confusing.

[Patrick Flynn]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I've said this before. The fundamental issue, though, is that they don't have to deal with organizing 20-60+ youth and their parents in this venue. It was much easier to do so in Atlanta than in St. Louis. In fact in STL it's virtually impossible to stick together as a team because the layout is so cramped, convoluted, and confusing.

You've said this quite a few times now. As someone who hasn't been to Atlanta can you please elaborate as to what makes St. Louis so much more difficult?

It seems to me that the FIRST staff organizing, 400 FRC teams, 3 different levels, FLL, FTC, and FRC, plus multiple divisions of each, plus VIPS, plus vendors and sponsors all while making sure that the teams have a good time and don't have the issues you are alluding too would have a much more daunting task than keeping a team together, So I'm sure that they understand the difficulty with organizing.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I've said this before. The fundamental issue, though, is that they don't have to deal with organizing 20-60+ youth and their parents in this venue. It was much easier to do so in Atlanta than in St. Louis. In fact in STL it's virtually impossible to stick together as a team because the layout is so cramped, convoluted, and confusing.

Again, there are people who weigh into decisions who DO have team experience.

So, again, you're incorrect; FIRST does think about these things.

I'm going to echo Pat. What are your specific issues? Make them known.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I've said this before. The fundamental issue, though, is that they don't have to deal with organizing 20-60+ youth and their parents in this venue. It was much easier to do so in Atlanta than in St. Louis.

I disagree. Atlanta's layout was a lot more spread out, and my experience is that it was easier for people to get misplaced along the path from one place to another. The tactic of making sure everyone knows the precise destination works fine in both venues, and it seems to me that it's easier for everyone to naturally take the same path to the same place in St. Louis.

In fact in STL it's virtually impossible to stick together as a team because the layout is so cramped, convoluted, and confusing.

Cramped is a value judgement. I'll grant that there's less space to spread out in the St. Louis venue, unless you wander a little bit away from the main action.

Convoluted? Not in my experience. Around the America's Center/Edward Jones Dome complex, I find the directions to get from place to place quite straightforward compared with the multiplicity of options at the Georgia World Congress Center.

Confusing is again a value judgement. Here, though, I'll point out that it took me less than two days to figure out effective routes to most locations through the America's Center, while it wasn't until my third year in Atlanta that I had come up with a quick and efficient way to get from the pits to the stands.

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The St. Louis facilities are cramped, small, filled to the brim with people, and stuck in a place where there is no outdoor space but a tiny concrete "courtyard" and sidewalks next to the streets.

I always saw plenty of unfilled space upstairs in the America's Center when I had occasion to walk around. If you need a non-cramped spot to gather, it's there. There's a very nice outdoor space just to the east of the Edward Jones Dome, comparable to the West Plaza between the Georgia Dome and the convention center in Atlanta. The park area surrounding the Gateway Arch isn't significantly farther from the venue than Centennial Olympic Park was. I'm sorry you seem to have such a bad opinion of what St. Louis offers in the way of useful space, but on these issues at least your complaints are not overly compelling.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about! I am one of those persons of which you speak. These people arrive on Monday and leave on Sunday, working 12, 13, 14 15 hour days. And many of them are VOLUNTEERS....Yes, that is a pretty full week, so you can have the top quality event you are complaining about.

What specific ideas would you bring to the table to improve the event? Email them to frcteams@usfirst.org or me directly and I will forward them myself, unalderterated. And post them here so all can see.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might be asked to be on the committee!

I would love to be on the committee! There are so many aspects of the championship that could be much better for the participants, that I have voiced to FIRST a number of times.

I understand that a lot of these people are out there on the floor. I'm talking about the logistics of organizing a rather large group of youth and parents, and keeping them together in the extremely cramped venue in St. Louis. While Atlanta had fewer teams, it was still exponentially more spacious and open than St. Louis. With the big wide foyers, the glass walls, the huge lawn, open concept dome concourse layout, and nearby open and spacious venues (such as Centennial Olympic Park and the CNN Center). Not to mention a huge airport hub that is actually cheaper for most teams to fly into than STL. The St. Louis facilities are cramped, small, filled to the brim with people, and stuck in a place where there is no outdoor space but a tiny concrete "courtyard" and sidewalks next to the streets. Plus, crowd management in St. Louis (from the event staff of the venue and the science center both) was absolutely terrible. This is something has been said numerous times that will be fixed for the coming year, and never actually does.

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn

You've said this quite a few times now. As someone who hasn't been to Atlanta can you please elaborate as to what makes St. Louis so much more difficult?

It seems to me that the FIRST staff organizing, 400 FRC teams, 3 different levels, FLL, FTC, and FRC, plus multiple divisions of each, plus VIPS, plus vendors and sponsors all while making sure that the teams have a good time and don't have the issues you are alluding too would have a much more daunting task than keeping a team together, So I'm sure that they understand the difficulty with organizing.

You're kind of comparing apples to oranges here. Yes, I know they have first-hand experience with organizing. But organizing a group of high school kids (that don't know the area or venue) multiplied by a hundred other teams that never seem to actually know what is going on, in a venue with such a convoluted layout is a little different. Maybe not as daunting, but just different. I understand the daunting task that they have. I'm just saying that we have a different kind of daunting task. Maybe it's not as horrible as it seems. Maybe my particular team has been particularly unlucky with this. Who knows. I'm just sharing my personal experiences.

Again, stay tuned for my response letter. This will also be complete with pictures and personal stories from the participants and those of us mentors who have had to deal with them. You may be surprised at how horribly we have been treated by the event staff in St. Louis over the past couple years.

Also, I will say this. Even if St. Louis was a great place, I feel that it needs to move around the country more than every 7 or so years. Not only does this give the kids experience in different cities, but it also gives these different regions the excitement of hosting championships and seeing what FIRST is all about. Give the west coast a chance at it for a year or two, then move it to the east coast, then to the midwest, and so on. Maybe this is impossible or not feasible. I don't necessarily have all the facts. This is just my $0.02. You can take it for whatever it's worth to you.

[Alex2614]

I also think that, despite all of St. Louis' downsides, there are a number of seemingly little things that could make the experience ten times better while we are there. But again, I will address those at a later date.

[Mike Starke]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

But organizing a group of high school kids (that don't know the area or venue) multiplied by a hundred other teams that never seem to actually know what is going on, in a venue with such a convoluted layout is a little different. Maybe not as daunting, but just different. I understand the daunting task that they have. I'm just saying that we have a different kind of daunting task. Maybe it's not as horrible as it seems. Maybe my particular team has been particularly unlucky with this. Who knows. I'm just sharing my personal experiences.

Sounds like you need to bring a more manageable number of students to Championship. If your team doesn't have the support it needs to supervise students in this environment, then cut back on the number of kids you bring.

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by magnets

The food during the event is not great...

I like the Culinaria/Schnucks Market on 9th & Olive.

I was a freshman when I attended the Houston CMP in 2003. In my mind it doesn't approach the high quality of the St. Louis event I had the privilege to attend a decade later as a mentor. This is true across all the parameters I care deeply about, including "average number of cockroaches encountered per day."