Championship Location Announced

[dtengineering]

Originally Posted by Racer26

I'll admit I'm ignorant of the AP testing problem -- we don't have such a thing in Canada. Our Grade 10 Literacy Test frequently collides with FRC events, and we work around it.

Advanced placement exams have taken place in Canadian high schools for over 25 years.

Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

And, for the record, in British Columbia there is no such thing as a "Grade 10 Literacy Test" that frequently collides with FRC events.

Canada > Ontario, eh?

Jason

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The only people that I have talked to that prefer St. Louis are the ones that have only been to St. Louis.

This hasn't been my experience at all when talking to people, and I've been to every Championship venue since they were at Disney. I can cite things I disliked about every Championship I've attended, St. Louis included, but I've never felt like because the event was in St. Louis it was somehow not successful or less enjoyable.

What's one good reason to host it in St. Louis? Maybe the large amount of help the event receives from local teams, volunteers & companies that all pitch in to help support the event. Not that you wouldn't find this in Atlanta or Indianapolis, but I think our local supporters do a pretty awesome job.

I'm looking forward to reading your specific complaints about St. Louis.

[BBray_T1296]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

I'm looking forward to reading your specific complaints about St. Louis.

+1

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Racer26

I'll admit I'm ignorant of the AP testing problem...

Fortunately, ignorance can be fixed, if one but pays attention.

"Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." (Julius Caesar, Caesar and Cleopatra by George Bernard Shaw)

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by dtengineering

Advanced placement exams have taken place in Canadian high schools for over 25 years.

Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

And, for the record, in British Columbia there is no such thing as a "Grade 10 Literacy Test" that frequently collides with FRC events.

Canada > Ontario, eh?

Jason

AP Exams in Canadian High Schools: Didn't happen in my school, nor any of my friends' schools that I'm aware of. Maybe they're more proliferous than I think, but I concede that they DO happen here.

I was actually aware that the Grade 10 Literacy Test is an Ontario-only thing, but, I'll admit my post made it sound like a Canada-wide thing. The truth of the matter is that until 2012, there were no regionals outside Ontario. It frequently is an issue for the ~70+ Ontario teams who have to leave several of their students home for at least one day of their competitions.

Ultimately though, I too am disappointed that HQ decided to keep CMP in St. Louis. The 3 championships that have been held there have all had fairly systemic issues related to venue size, poor planning, and a program that is rapidly outgrowing its format.

I only ever attended CMP in 2010, when it was in Atlanta. My experience there, was that the facilities we were using had a significant amount of room for us to expand.

Teams need more than 8 qualification matches.

We need more than 400 teams at CMP.

The 54 2014 regional events will qualify 324 teams to compete (not counting pre-qualified teams who earn a 2014 merit-slot and wasted wildcards). MICMP qualifies another 27, and the other 3 districts push the number very close to, if not over 400. Never mind HOF and Sustaining teams, and 2013 Champions.

CMP has to grow. Time restrictions mean it can't get longer, and teams can't play fewer qualification matches than 9, and ideally 10-12. Something's got to give.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Racer26

I was actually aware that the Grade 10 Literacy Test is an Ontario-only thing, but, I'll admit my post made it sound like a Canada-wide thing. The truth of the matter is that until 2012, there were no regionals outside Ontario. It frequently is an issue for the ~70+ Ontario teams who have to leave several of their students home for at least one day of their competitions.

This is an issue that "just has to exist". The 2011 NJ Regional coincided with the HSPAs(NJ state-wide proficiency test). MAR events often collide with this(though I believe MAR tries to avoid/have one of the two PA events that weekend). Now, I had trouble finding exact dates of the test via Google(seeing various dates in March-May), but as Ontario eventually moves towards the district structure, provided the test doesn't collide with Championships, that will eliminate the issue by having SatSun events or off-weeks.


I think we just need to accept that until the FRC event structure is significantly redefined, we're unlikely to see the lifting of major collisions.

And I don't believe my question earlier was answered: other than Easter and existing venue contracts is there anything, competition structurewise, preventing VEX Worlds from being during the weekend between Week 7 and Championships?

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

I disagree with this, though. St. Louis's airport isn't nearly as big as Atlanta or Indy...

Yes, Atlanta Hartsfield is much bigger, but the other part of this statement is completely false. St. Louis Lambert is 27.5% larger than Indy based on number of passenger flights (255,276 for STL vs 200,253 for IND), and 25% larger than Indy based on number of gates (50 for STL vs. 40 for IND)

I have been to all FIRST championship locations, and I prefer St. Louis to Atlanta.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

I think we just need to accept that until the FRC event structure is significantly redefined, we're unlikely to see the lifting of major collisions.

And I don't believe my question earlier was answered: other than Easter and existing venue contracts is there anything, competition structurewise, preventing VEX Worlds from being during the weekend between Week 7 and Championships?

I've been under the impression that the VEX competition structure is more flexible than the FRC structure, but I assume that the Anaheim Convention Center is a very popular venue for a lot of events and it's a favorite of the organizers and attendees for VEX worlds. There are key members of both competitions, and I assume one of the groups got backed into a corner where they had to take the dates. It's not ideal for anyone, but it is what it is.

I know people recognize the necessity of moving to a larger venue to support CMP yesterday, but I imagine FIRST HQ has to be getting a very beneficial deal to themselves and for the city for them to take this offer. Halfway through this extension on the venue agreement, half of the FRC population is going to be under the district system (assuming Eastern Canada, the Capital Region, and a few other locales put it together by then) which is going to streamline the competition and greatly slow the pace of increasing merit-based slots for CMP, and may even cause a small dip in the count. (For example, if slots are appropriated to an area under a district system relative to the population of teams in FRC, Ontario/Montreal could lose at least 10 "redundant" slots).

It feels like the program is crossing the canyon a lot of people saw coming 5 years ago and now they have to build the bridge across it on the fly. Under the existing system you're going to really feel the burn in CMP in 2-3 years spacewise even if they do everything possible, so this deal might just work well enough for where the program is now.

There are things FIRST can do: set minimum and maximum occupancy for a regional event to event out the probability of securing a merit-based slot from one of these events, add in more teams to CMP while definitely adding at least 1 more division, shrink pit size or size of something else... it can work. No venue is perfect and St Louis may not jive with long-term goals of the organization, but smart people work in HQ and they know what needs improving and they think they can work it all out in St Louis.

[Calvin Hartley]

Originally Posted by Racer26

...We need more than 400 teams at CMP...

Why do we need more than 400 teams? It's a Championship event. A championship naturally is intended for the top teams. I personally don't see the necessity of adding more teams, though I would like to hear your reasons for your opinion.

[Alan Anderson]

Pardon the ramble, but I have a bunch of stuff in my head that wants to get out.

Part 1: location

I like how convenient it is to get between the pits and the fields in St. Louis. The layout could be tweaked further, but it's pretty good. However, it's FULL. There's not really room for growth.

The World Congress Center in Atlanta is spacious. The field layout in the Georgia Dome was great. The walk from pits to stands was a hike, but not ridiculously far, and I enjoyed the regular opportunity to experience the outdoors along the way.

I prefer the experience I had in Atlanta by a very small margin, but I was a few years younger then. As I get busier (and perhaps a bit slower), I appreciate the proximity of pits and dome in St. Louis more.

Part 2: size

Option A: don't have more teams attending The Championship Event

As more regions make the transition to the district model, the number of Regional competitions will eventually decrease. That will make it possible to keep the number of teams qualifying for The Championship from growing past the currently barely manageable size. Perhaps it could even be reduced.

Option B: have more teams attending The Championship Event

Simultaneously inviting more teams and giving each team more matches just isn't going to work without adding more fields, and probably more divisions. A larger Championship needs a venue larger than the Edward Jones Dome area. Having more divisions also makes the Einstein matches take longer. And how does FIRST deal with the after-event party getting even larger?

Option C: add another level to the competition hierarchy

Instead of making the FRC Championship bigger, how about making it smaller? During the current "off week" in the competition schedule, hold a set of "Conference" competitions to select 24 teams to send on to the finals. It makes things more complicated, and it adds to the interference with school.


Part 3: experience

That "interferes with school" thing is a problem. It keeps a lot of teams from planning to attend the Championship without competing, even though there's so much to get out of it anyway. Many people seem to think that each team should have the opportunity to attend every so often, just to give the students the experience. Well, nobody at FIRST is stopping them from showing up and enjoying the event, or attending the presentations, or volunteering to help run it.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

And I don't believe my question earlier was answered: other than Easter and existing venue contracts is there anything, competition structurewise, preventing VEX Worlds from being during the weekend between Week 7 and Championships?

You're right, but the answer given is those two things are substantial enough to not need other roadblocks.

Originally Posted by Calvin Hartley

Why do we need more than 400 teams? It's a Championship event. A championship naturally is intended for the top teams. I personally don't see the necessity of adding more teams, though I would like to hear your reasons for your opinion.

I completely concur, and I think 400 FRC teams is unnecessarily large. My hope is that as districts proliferate, the size of the (FRC) championship shrinks. I also hope that the FTC championship grows in number of teams - mostly to honor all teams in the winning alliance, not just the captain.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

Absolutely not true. So many people's perspectives go into these decisions, from all different backgrounds. Volunteers, team participants, FIRST staff/officials, VIPs, event managers - they are looking at all angles.

Originally Posted by Racer26

Teams need more than 8 qualification matches.

We need more than 400 teams at CMP.

With the current 4-field structure, you cannot have that cake and eat it too.

I will echo another post above me - Why do we "need" 400+?
(We DEFINITELY need more than 8 matches per team. That was unacceptable.)

[Patrick Flynn]

Originally Posted by IndySam

The past layout of the dome floor is simply awful. They put it on the short end (because of the main hospitality area) and there is simply not enough seating for the opening ceremony or the finals.

FIRST choosing a better vantage point for their VIP's over a chance for all the students to watch really sticks in my craw.

I agree that the floor layout isn't the best. And that things could be done to improve it.
But I also feel that the VIP's that give a lot of money to back this program deserve the best seating. I maybe alone here, but I think anywhere, Football, Hockey, etc, etc, you will see the big money supporters getting preferred seating. I think that there maybe a way to compromise here and work out some better seating. But I think that if someone is giving more money that me they get the better seats.
Also i understand that you spend a lot of money to get to champs, but the VIP's spend more than that on the program I'm sure.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Patrick Flynn

I agree that the floor layout isn't the best. And that things could be done to improve it.
But I also feel that the VIP's that give a lot of money to back this program deserve the best seating. I maybe alone here, but I think anywhere, Football, Hockey, etc, etc, you will see the big money supporters getting preferred seating. I think that there maybe a way to compromise here and work out some better seating. But I think that if someone is giving more money that me they get the better seats.
Also i understand that you spend a lot of money to get to champs, but the VIP's spend more than that on the program I'm sure.

^ This. There's no easy-way of saying this, but let's be real. Sponsors who give thousands (and in some cases millions) of dollars to FIRST - in direct sponsorship, mentorship, whatever the case may be - are going to get a focus when it comes to designing some portions of the Championship experience.

That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some big improvements in the team experience (the biggest example being the wrap-party this year, but that's already been addressed in statements from FIRST)... It's just worth mentioning that yes, VIPs are going to get some things tailored to them. This should not be news to anyone with a realistic mindset about things.

[Rosiebotboss]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

The fundamental problem is that the FIRST officials don't have to worry about organizing a team of people that needs to stick together, and they spend a lot of time in the VIP areas. i.e. they don't have the participant perspective.

With all due respect, you have NO idea what you are talking about! I am one of those persons of which you speak. These people arrive on Monday and leave on Sunday, working 12, 13, 14 15 hour days. And many of them are VOLUNTEERS....Yes, that is a pretty full week, so you can have the top quality event you are complaining about.

What specific ideas would you bring to the table to improve the event? Email them to frcteams@usfirst.org or me directly and I will forward them myself, unalderterated. And post them here so all can see.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might be asked to be on the committee!