FrankAnswersFridays: October 25, 2013: Safety at Championships

[MrTechCenter]

Also, the supposed "extra bag check" never happened. At least not for me, I brought my backpack every day and used the main entrance into the corridor that connects the EJD with America's Center and I the first day they checked but after that they just let everybody in, even of they had bags. It may have been different for others, but that's how it was for me.

[George C]

Originally Posted by TheCascadeKid

What about a lottery system? Teams submit how many seats they need, then they are reserved. Period. No rush for anything since seats are predetermined.

Big difference between "need" and "want". I might have x people attending but maybe more so let's book x+10.

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by MrTechCenter

Also, the supposed "extra bag check" never happened. At least not for me, I brought my backpack every day and used the main entrance into the corridor that connects the EJD with America's Center and I the first day they checked but after that they just let everybody in, even of they had bags. It may have been different for others, but that's how it was for me.

I went through with my personal backpack not getting checked. Not to mention that I witnessed coolers, totes, and large boxes go by without getting checked as well.

The people responsible for door management and crowd control didn't seem to know what was going on, and were also often incapable of even providing information or directions to people coming in.

[Robotmmm]

I also like the idea of a designated "scouting team only" section. Each team would get 4(?) badges (like the drive team ones) and you can only be in that section if you have a badge.

Another thing that would be of great help is if FIRST could film all matches in a full field, stationary format. Then upload the matches immediately to their website. This would eliminate the need for teams to bring all their own equipment which is combersome and sometimes blocks views of those behind them.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Robotmmm

I also like the idea of a designated "scouting team only" section. Each team would get 4(?) badges (like the drive team ones) and you can only be in that section if you have a badge.

6 badges, minimum, per team. You don't have to use all of them...but to have only 4 scouts is going to be rough, and I speak from experience (scouting 4 robots with only 2 people doing it isn't fun--tells you how long I've been doing this). I'd prefer 7, 6 plus one sub/data person/messenger.

But, what's been brought up before when this is proposed is this: You're splitting the team. Teams generally don't like to be split, which is why saving seats comes up every year.

The other factor is that the scouting section(s) will need to be in the GOOD seats, and have power available for those that have electronics. Now you need extra crowd control to kick people without those buttons out of those seats, and some policing of the outlets or whatever other power supplies are available.

[treffk]

I was not at Championships this past year due to not being able to get off work so I am unsure of what it was like compared to 2012 when as a volunteer I was left with a sour taste in my mouth due to ungracious behaviors I witnessed and a lack of coordination for getting teams into their seats for Einstein. I am just playing the devils advocate here for the sake of another view, particularly the view someone planning would have to consider when designing the plan.

By adding a scouting section how would it be enforced that only those who are queued for matches(if there are 6 scouters allowed per team, that 36 potential scouters per match) are in the section? (I am using teams that are queued for matches as a limiting factor for the amount of space needed to be roped off for the scouting section, if anyone else has any other ways to limit it that would be great to hear. Without limits there would be a need to rope off 600 seats per division just for scoting) And how many additional volunteers would be needed to run and manage this new section on each field? If it gets queued like getting on the field that means at least 2 volunteers per section.

I know this point has been beat to death when it comes to events but every year the manual states seats are not to be saved. If they were to go to randomly assigned slots of seats, how would this be enforced? Would it be gracious professionalism similar to what is supposed to be in place to prevent the saving of seats? From a volunteer side of it how will the seating arrangements be determined for each day? Will it be announced the day prior or have the entire weekend planned as soon as divisions are out? How could those running the event handle possible issues between teams over the seats? Would there be a specific desk that you could go lodge a complaint and they would send a volunteer to investigate? How many more volunteers would this require to be effective?

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by treffk

I was not at Championships this past year due to not being able to get off work so I am unsure of what it was like compared to 2011 when as a volunteer I was left with a sour taste in my mouth due to ungracious behaviors I witnessed and a lack of coordination for getting teams into their seats for Einstein. I am just playing the devils advocate here for the sake of another view, particularly the view someone planning would have to consider when designing the plan.

By adding a scouting section how would it be enforced that only those who are queued for matches(if there are 6 scouters allowed per team, that 36 potential scouters per match) are in the section? And how many additional volunteers would be needed to run and manage this new section on each field? If it gets queued like getting on the field that means at least 2 volunteers per section.

I know this point has been beat to death when it comes to events but every year the manual states seats are not to be saved. If they were to go to randomly assigned slots of seats, how would this be enforced? Would it be gracious professionalism similar to what is supposed to be in place to prevent the saving of seats? From a volunteer side of it how will the seating arrangements be determined for each day? Will it be announced the day prior or have the entire weekend planned as soon as divisions are out? How could those running the event handle possible issues between teams over the seats? Would there be a specific desk that you could go lodge a complaint and they would send a volunteer to investigate? How many more volunteers would this require to be effective?

Why would only teams queued for matches be allowed to scout?

[treffk]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Why would only teams queued for matches be allowed to scout?

I honestly don't know what I was thinking when I said that. I am assuming I was using that as a way to limit who was in the scouts only area. If it's not limited and there is space for all teams to send their 6 scouts this would require quite a large area to be blocked off. 6 scouts per team and 100 teams per division would require 600 seats per division be roped off. If 600 seats is not feasible for be roped off in each section how could teams rotate in and out of the area? In my eyes roping off a section for about 108(6 students x 3 teams per alliance x 2 alliances=108 scouters) would be more feasible and easier to manage.

[Chris is me]

I'm not against making plans for designated scouting sections, provided there's a way to come up with a simple, effective, accommodating solution that doesn't take a huge amount of effort. I don't think the addition of a scouting section will fix the stampede problem, though. Teams want to sit together, there is limited seating, and not all of it is very good. Therefore, people are going to rush to try and "grab" blocks of seats for their team to sit in clusters.

This isn't an easy problem to solve at all, but it's not something that can go unaddressed either. Anything that involves adding staff, seating designations, etc. is going to be a hard sell as it's a lot of extra work and additional resources for a problem that exists for about 15-20 minutes a day.

I like the idea of four lines and letting in a set number of people / teams in at a time in waves. requires more people just for 20 minutes and just at the door. Letting people into the dome in waves means the quest for seating will be civil and fair without having to reserve sections for teams or something weird like that. The main challenge i see is how one handles a situation where one team member shows up at 4 AM to hold a spot in line and the rest of the team shows up at 7...

[BrendanB]

They really should start looking into using more areas to let teams in! You have swarms of pit crew members rushing in to either start working on their robots or head to practice combined with swarms of team members heading to the stands to save seats.

It would be great if FIRST used rope on the sidewalks in front of several entrances around the dome to create lines with entrances labelled (2+ for dome and 1+ for the pits). Creating an orderly line of entrants along with volunteers/security at the doors to slow down the flow of bodies going through doors can help.

I am not a fan of a designated scouting section. If divisions have 100+ teams in them and your scouting system requires 6-8 individuals to scout, not to mention room for equipment you will need a minimum of 600-800 seats sectioned off although one could argue most of the stands are just scouts. Now most teams don't scout and some don't need that much room, but with the district model increasing the competitiveness of regions the competitiveness of the divisions will increase as will scouting.

I am open to the idea of assigned seating but unless a group steps forward to handle the logistics of handing out enough assigned seats but not too many FIRST most likely does not have the man power to start assigning daily seats. Also if every team asks for 3-5 too many seats (x 400 teams= 1200-2000 extra seats) then we really won't have enough room for teams to watch Einstein.

As Chris said, anything that involves significant additional manpower is a hard sell to FIRST who is a small volunteer organization running a massive program!

With that being said FIRST really needs to step back and examine where they want to go and how to get there keeping safety in mind. If we want to be the superbowl of smarts and grow the championship to that level its going to to take a lot of work. The superbowl draws a massive volunteer base from its host city, security is very high not only to ensure safety from threats but also safety in masses, etc. I really hope FIRST takes this seriously as I have felt very unsafe during moments of mass movement at the FIRST championship in 2011 and 2013. The mass exodus during doors open and the end of the day or the finale is flat out going to seriously hurt someone one day or another!

[brennanvhoek]

I like the idea of four lines and waves as well.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

The main challenge i see is how one handles a situation where one team member shows up at 4 AM to hold a spot in line and the rest of the team shows up at 7...

One way to solve this problem is to hand out one ticket per person as people arrive. You wouldn't need to start handing out tickets until 5 AM as the cutting doesn't happen 'til later. Then let people in by the order of tickets. This would also slow people down as they go through the door, as their ticket would have to be checked. Plus it would make it easy to do waves, "tickets 2014-0000 thru 2014-0100." Granted it would take some man power in the mornings but it would be fairly cheap, a roll of tickets is only $20 or so.

Another option would be to do something like the Portland Timbers do. They have a lottery system that gives a certain percentage of people special tickets. With those tickets they are let in an hour before everyone else. This takes a lot of the rush for good seats away as the best seats are already taken.

[Seth Mallory]

I would like to see the lower section divide into 3 sections using the isles as deviders. Each section would be assign to different match's in a rotation. You would have the match before to get into the seats and the match after yours to get out of the seats so the next assigned match's teams could get into watch. This would allow smaller teams that do not have the people that spend the day keeping other people from watching there own match's to see their match's from good seats. You could come watch your match and then go to the tech exhibits or other things the event offers. It would also cut the need for some of the stampede.

[Pat Fairbank]

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams' GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by TheCascadeKid

What about a lottery system? Teams submit how many seats they need, then they are reserved. Period. No rush for anything since seats are predetermined.

Originally Posted by EricH

I'd prefer 7, 6 plus one sub/data person/messenger.

Frank,
Thanks for watching CD as an information source. Those of us out here really do appreciate that, more than we've already said.

On the point of seating, mad rushes, saving seats and safety: I strongly suggest you consider reserved seating and a lottery system for scouts for each division. The seats all have numbers, let's use that. I agree with Eric's suggestion of 7 tickets per team (we use 7 scouts for every match).

Each team will get 7 assigned seats in the 'scouting' section, which are the lower concourse sections that have good visibility of the entire field. Which exact seats a team gets is random, but your team is in a group, and these are the same seats for all of CMP. The rest of the team sits elsewhere.

Teams that don't use 7 scouts can use their 7 seats for whatever they wish, except that no items that can block one's view are allowed (large signs, etc.), and standing during a match is prohibited - after all, we're scouting here....

Some basic research: Foe example, sections 105, 107 and 109 of the Jones Dome are in a corner with good visibility of a division field. Each has about 21 rows, and if each row has an average of 14 seats, it means these sections can accommodate 123 teams - more than enough. If there are more seats per row (and I think there are) then either teams get more assigned seats (8 or 9 or 10, whatever) OR the last few rows are not assigned.

Power is a perennial issue, 1676 brings its own power as needed. If no AC outlets are available, we use battery and an AC inverter to run the wired router, server and printer used by the scouting team.

As for the rest of the mad dash, real crowd control through carefully defined entry bottlenecks would be fine.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank

I think the fairest system, and the one requiring the least amount of work to implement, is the one that many teams (including my own) try to follow now -- you show up early in the morning with as many people as seats you want to claim, and stand in line.

Where this fails right now is that there is often not a clear indication of where the line starts (i.e. which door(s) will be opening) and no effort to enforce that teams respect the line (other than teams' GP, which sadly often goes missing at this point in the competition). This is easily and inexpensively solved with signage and crowd control barriers.

Edit: Having one such line for each division, at its own set of doors at the four corners of the dome, would also go a long way towards decreasing the safety hazard of people pushing or running in different directions after they get in.

Also giving the pit an obviously separate issue would be nice.