FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

[DELurker]

OK, my turn to chime in... yay!

The point system is, at it's core, the same as the one used in MAR last year, with a few exceptions. Of course, I've got a little bit of stick-in-the-mud syndrome over a few of the changes and I really like some others:

Elimination Round Performance
Teams on Alliances winning a particular playoff series
[e.g.: An Alliance winning a particular Quarter Final best two of three match series]
5 points for every match won in which a Team’s robot participated, only for the Alliance that wins the series

Having been in the role of a Backup team who was confused over the points awarded, this is a great clarification to how points are awarded when a backup team enters the fray. It could possibly be phrased better, but that's just me.

Team Age
10 points for Rookie Teams
5 points for second-year Teams

Basically, Rookies get an equivalent number of points to either two judged awards or becoming semifinalists. It's not a big boost, but it does add up. Looking at MAR for last year, by my calculations, the lowest point total team that participated in MAR CMP had either 42 or 39 points (not counting Chairman's & EI). Giving rookies 20 points (2 DE x 10 each) would have popped 4-5 more rookies into the MAR CMP. That's about 10% of the field being advanced up through the Rookie points alone (assuming no year two teams bump them). I like the points, but I think they may be too high.

Regional Participation
District Teams do not earn points for their actions at any Regionals they may attend, but are still eligible for Team awards at those events, and any benefits that may go along with winning those awards, such as earning their way to the FIRST Championship. However, if a District Team does earn a slot at the FIRST Championship while attending a Regional event, that slot does count against the total Championship allocation the District is receiving for the season.

(emphasis mine)
Not a big fan. So, basically, teams going into MAR CMP will know it's a win-or-go-home event. Let's see... 6 point-bids in 2013, with an average of 2-3 going away because of District teams winning outside Regionals. It becomes just a Regional now, with both the winners and finalists going to World's. Other Districts with more teams might be different, but this one line really gives the shaft to the MAR CMP event. If this is the case, then I recommend that MAR expand by co-opting Maryland before they form a district with DC and northern VA.

To be honest, I think a better way to do this particular item would be to just ban teams from going to outside Regionals.

[GBK]

Originally Posted by DELurker

To be honest, I think a better way to do this particular item would be to just ban teams from going to outside Regionals.

Unless there are some changes between now and then, once everyone is in the district model, this will not be an issue.

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by DELurker

To be honest, I think a better way to do this particular item would be to just ban teams from going to outside Regionals.

This would severely limit the diversity of teams that district teams would see before St Louis, so I don't really agree with this course of action. It's already tough enough for District teams to get into regionals anyway. This year, we'll most likely be sitting on the waitlist of our planned regional for a while.

[Hallry]

I've been lurking on this thread since the start but here's my first comment in it so far:

Originally Posted by DELurker

To be honest, I think a better way to do this particular item would be to just ban teams from going to outside Regionals.

Originally Posted by Jscout11

This would severely limit the diversity of teams that district teams would see before St Louis, so I don't really agree with this course of action. It's already tough enough for District teams to get into regionals anyway. This year, we'll most likely be sitting on the waitlist of our planned regional for a while.

If something like this had to be done, why not give district teams the option of attending a Regional OR their District Championships, instead of banning them from traveling at all? (If they don't attend their District championships, they won't qualify for World Champs through their district system)

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Jscout11

This would severely limit the diversity of teams that district teams would see before St Louis

How many district teams actually compete at Regionals? It can't be too many given the extra time commitment and the extra costs for registration and travel.

Barring district teams from Regionals would inconvenience the few teams that attend them, but you could argue that barring non-district teams from district events is comparable, if not worse.

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by Hallry

If something like this had to be done, why not give district teams the option of attending a Regional OR their District Championships, instead of banning them from traveling at all? (If they don't attend their District championships, they won't qualify for World Champs through their district system)

But then all the points accumulated in the districts are essentially lost, and the team would be basically restricted to one event that they can qualify from and the two district events are basically pointless. And I don't think any of the traveling teams in the district system would want to opt out of districts entirely for a second regional. Regardless, once interdistrict travel comes into play, most of these issues should go away.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Jscout11

But then all the points accumulated in the districts are essentially lost, and the team would be basically restricted to one event that they can qualify from and the two district events are basically pointless. And I don't think any of the traveling teams in the district system would want to opt out of districts entirely for a second regional. Regardless, once interdistrict travel comes into play, most of these issues should go away.

Exactly. Either they can try to qualify for St. Louis through their District Championship OR try to qualify through an outside regional. Then it wouldn't be possible for them to use up two spots, which this whole issue is really about.

And I disagree, the two district events would not be at all pointless. Where better to get great driver practice and find ways to improve your robot than at competitions to 'warm up' for your World Championship qualifying event, especially if your performance at the districts wouldn't matter?

I can almost see it...there...on the horizon...

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by Hallry

Exactly. Either they can try to qualify for St. Louis through their District Championship OR try to qualify through an outside regional. Then it wouldn't be possible for them to use up two spots, which this whole issue is really about.

And I disagree, the two district events would not be at all pointless. Where better to get great driver practice and find ways to improve your robot than at competitions to 'warm up' for your World Championship qualifying event, especially if your performance at the districts wouldn't matter?

I can almost see it...there...on the horizon...

Meant to say pointless in terms of qualifying. I definitely can get behind the driver practice/robot improvement side of things, but then what about if your regional does not come after the districts, but before like ours did. It would be pretty terrible to compete at two events with no chance of advancing further.

Originally Posted by ZehP

How many district teams actually compete at Regionals? It can't be too many given the extra time commitment and the extra costs for registration and travel.

Barring district teams from Regionals would inconvenience the few teams that attend them, but you could argue that barring non-district teams from district events is comparable, if not worse.

Off the top of my head, the MAR teams that traveled in 2013 were:
11, 25, 87, 341, 365, 2016, and I think 1676 was wait listed for NYC.
Some of these teams have expressed some interest in traveling again next year.

Not sure about Michigan besides from 245 who was also at Palmetto. And I know some other teams from NE and PNW traveled outside of their general area last year as well.

Yes, regional teams do not get the added benefit that a district system brings, but they are much less limited in terms of where they have to compete and when (no MAR events Week 2 or Week 6, and only one each on Weeks 4 + 5).

I may be biased as a travel ban would affect my team, but I still believe that there are better courses of action than an all out travel ban.

[Brandon_L]

Honestly, the system works in the sense that only X MAR teams, Y Michigan teams, ect, will be at CMP regardless of where they earn their slot. I agree with this. For a couple years there is the possibility of teams going outside district systems and winning, thus 'cutting in line' so to speak in the district rankings to swap a spot away. But that problem will go away in time as everyone moves to districts.

I'm honestly more concerned about this rookie 10pt rule.

And the fact that when inter-district play is allowed, who wants to travel to some random highschool gym.

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

And the fact that when inter-district play is allowed, who wants to travel to some random highschool gym.

Personally I'd love the chance to go to Michigan or back up to Boston, and with the interdistrict play district teams can keep it to just districts without limiting themselves to a few events with a lot of the same teams if they are willing to travel. This year is kind of just an off year caused by the transition to districts, so I see it as a necessary compromise.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

And the fact that when inter-district play is allowed, who wants to travel to some random highschool gym.

I think it depends on where you are located. I don't know how many teams would jump to travel a long distance to play in another district but for teams where the border meets it is nice. With New England going to the district model there were several teams in upper New York who always competed in New England events who had to find new "home" events.

If for example when Canada goes to the district model and potentially New York down the road I can see a lot of inter-district play between MAR-NY-NE-CAN. Other areas like PNW-CAN, PNW-CA, MI-CAN, etc might also see more border play.

[Nemo]

Overall I'm very happy to see that there's a common points system for districts. As has been noted, people should take a step back and realize that inter-district play is the big payoff here. People have been talking about the problem of being locked into your districts for years, and knowing that FIRST wants to open that up in 2015 is great news. I'm assuming we'll eventually make our way into a district system, and I'm very happy to know that we'll still be able to choose which direction we travel and switch it up from year to year.

Giving rookies a slight point advantage without handing them a free pass seems like the right move. And I like the small second year team bonus. All this does is make it a bit more likely that some rookies will appear in the district championship events. Overall, it's a much better system than automatically qualifying a rookie at every event and ending up with 1/6 rookies at the next level of competition, regardless of how well those rookies competed.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by GBK

Unless there are some changes between now and then, once everyone is in the district model, this will not be an issue.

Absolutely true. However, that's several years down the road.

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by Jscout11

And I don't think any of the traveling teams in the district system would want to opt out of district[ championships] entirely for a second regional.

Just going to point out that teams like 341 and 365 wouldn't care if they lost their district points from their two districts. Ryan's suggested system would work just fine for them, just not the teams like 11, 2016, etc.

[Jscout11]

Originally Posted by EricDrost

Just going to point out that teams like 341 and 365 wouldn't care if they lost their district points from their two districts. Ryan's suggested system would work just fine for them, just not the teams like 11, 2016, etc.

Yeah i realize that, but I think HOF teams and the like are exceptions and not the rule.