FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

[MikeE]

Let's put the Rookie/2nd year team bonus in perspective with some numbers.

If we ignore the age bonus, the average points total (i.e. expected points if we don't assign priors) for a "standard" sized district event of 40 teams is 25.3pts per team. In other words an average of 51.3 points from two standard district events.

In that context an age bonus of 5/10pts per event seems too large, so let's assume the age bonus is a once-per-season bonus. Now confirmed by Don below.

Note that the size of the event also impacts the average points per team. While the qualification match points awarded at an event are proportional to the number of teams attending, the other components are fixed per event so do not vary based on the number of teams. There are always 8 alliances (i.e. 24 teams get alliance selection points), always 4 alliances scoring elimination match points, and always* Chariman's, EI + 11 other awards (+ up to 2 rookie awards).
So at a smaller event the fixed points are distributed across fewer teams leading to higher average points/team.

In 2013 Michigan events were all either 39 or 40 teams, but 2013 MAR events ranged from 31 teams at Lenape-Seneca up to 43 teams at Bridgewater-Raritan. Under the new unified model the average points at a 31 team event is 29.2, whereas at a 43 team event it's only 24.4.

Therefore a team attending the two largest 2013 MAR events (37 & 43 teams) would expect an average of 50.8pts and a team attending the two smallest (31 & 33 teams) would expect an average of 57.3pts. That's 6.5 points difference/13% advantage to the team at smaller events, more than the 2nd year age bonus.

So all else being equal, teams should attend smaller districts.

Or perhaps a better conclusion is that district events should be as close as possible to the same size.

* in reality some awards are occasionally skipped at events (e.g. Judges award)

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by MikeE

In that context an age bonus of 5/10pts per event seems too large, so let's assume the age bonus is a once-per-season bonus.
I'm sure Frank will clarify this particular point in the next few days.

I spoke with Ed Petrillo of MAR at Ramp Riot yesterday - he was on the committee - and he verified that the 10/5 points was a total for the season, not per event. So the theoretical minimum any rookie team can have going into DCMP is 10.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

And the fact that when inter-district play is allowed, who wants to travel to some random highschool gym.

I don't know, there's quite a few teams that apply to travel to some random HS gym in Indiana every summer.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I don't know, there's quite a few teams that apply to travel to some random HS gym in Indiana every summer.

To play with the best of the best.

Others mentioned district border hopping which would make sense, especially in the packed MAR/NY/NE area. I was more looking at travel as in, 25 going to Hawaii or Daisy going to Vegas.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

To play with the best of the best.

Others mentioned district border hopping which would make sense, especially in the packed MAR/NY/NE area. I was more looking at travel as in, 25 going to Hawaii or Daisy going to Vegas.

They'd go to that district for the same reason they'd go to the Las Vegas/Hawaii Regional now. The only thing that would change would be the number of teams going, the length of the district, and the cost.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

I spoke with Ed Petrillo of MAR at Ramp Riot yesterday - he was on the committee - and he verified that the 10/5 points was a total for the season, not per event. So the theoretical minimum any rookie team can have going into DCMP is 10.

At 5/10 points total for the season for a 2nd Year/Rookie, that sounds much better. Thanks for talking to Ed and getting more information for us.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by EricDrost

Just going to point out that teams like 341 and 365 wouldn't care if they lost their district points from their two districts. Ryan's suggested system would work just fine for them, just not the teams like 11, 2016, etc.

I'm not entirely sure if 'Wouldn't Care' would be true here - 'would be less affected' might be a better way to say it.

If we're forced to opt out of going to District Championships just because we wanted to travel elsewhere, then something's wrong. What's the point of us even playing in the District System to begin with if we're going to be forced out of it's Championship? It seems that people are viewing the District Championship as another step towards the World Championship rather than being it's own Championship with it's own worth and prestige.

IMO, it actually makes MORE sense for a Team that competes outside of the District to also compete at it's Championship. I know this goes against common thinking, but look at it like this: A Team chooses to compete outside of MAR like 11, 2016, 1676, 25, etc. None of these teams have an Autobid into the CMP at this point, but all are worthy of representing the District more often than not. One/Any of these teams could win an outside event which would then Qualify them for the World Championship - meaning that they remove one spot from the system. Now if that same team chooses to compete at the DCMP and wins, or is up there in points - guess what? They still have only used one spot, meaning that the spot that they earned based on their District Performance will now trickle down to the next team.

I guess the way I see it, a district team is only going to use one spot* no matter how often, or where they play. There will be the issue of 'poaching' a spot should the team travel, as they're going to suck a spot out of an event that should have gone to someone from that event, but it's an issue that isn't easily fixed. In any case, a district team that chooses to compete outside and then at it's Championship is doing little to no injustice in my book, considering that historically, any team that will go to an outside regional and win will more than likely qualify through the District Championship anyway.

*Now there is the interesting issue of HoF, Original and Sustaining, and Previous Year World Champion Teams. No one has been able to conclusively state that these teams will not 'black hole' a spot or a series of spots should they chose to travel outside of their district and or win their District Championship. As far as I can tell, any team pre-qualified for the CMP prior to the competition season still 'black holes' their first CMP spot earned in that season. From their, the wildcard system comes into play at the regional level since the team has 'qualified at a previous event'.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by thefro526

*Now there is the interesting issue of HoF, Original and Sustaining, and Previous Year World Champion Teams. No one has been able to conclusively state that these teams will not 'black hole' a spot or a series of spots should they chose to travel outside of their district and or win their District Championship. As far as I can tell, any team pre-qualified for the CMP prior to the competition season still 'black holes' their first CMP spot earned in that season. From their, the wildcard system comes into play at the regional level since the team has 'qualified at a previous event'.

You know, I asked Ed Petrillo about that, too, and I was told that a HoF team uses up a spot when they win at their district CMP, but not if they do not win there. I got the impression that their winning at a regional would not affect the number of district slots, but I may be wrong there.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

Honestly, the system works in the sense that only X MAR teams, Y Michigan teams, ect, will be at CMP regardless of where they earn their slot. I agree with this. For a couple years there is the possibility of teams going outside district systems and winning, thus 'cutting in line' so to speak in the district rankings to swap a spot away. But that problem will go away in time as everyone moves to districts.

I'm honestly more concerned about this rookie 10pt rule.

And the fact that when inter-district play is allowed, who wants to travel to some random highschool gym.

I know I speak for our team when I say that we would love to play against teams that are local that we don't play against right now. 2056, 1114, 111, 71, and a host of other phenomenal teams are located geographically just outside our district system.

The whole 'school gym' issue is very overblown. It's about playing good teams. High level competitive competition is far more exciting than arena style seating. Believe me, I'm not thinking about the building we're in when we're playing the likes of 469, 33, 67, etc.

[quad]

As a FYI, Frank as answered some of the questions that were posed in comments posted on the FRC Blog

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by quad

As a FYI, Frank as answered some of the questions that were posed in comments posted on the FRC Blog

Here are the responses:

Correct, earning the Chairman's Award at a 3rd event still earns the bye.

Just a standing 5 or 10 points for the season, not per event.

(in response to Rookie/2nd year points)

District teams don't earn ranking points at Regionals.

We'll have an update on this shortly.

(in response to #'s of slots for Districts)

The cutoff to the District Championship and the FIRST Championship is dynamically determined by the number of slots available and the spread of points earned by teams in the system. It's not set in advance.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

You know, I asked Ed Petrillo about that, too, and I was told that a HoF team uses up a spot when they win at their district CMP, but not if they do not win there. I got the impression that their winning at a regional would not affect the number of district slots, but I may be wrong there.

Don, this has been my understanding as well, that should an HoF/OgS/WC win their District Championship, they will be 'awarded' one of the spots allotted for winners of that event.

Now, as far as what those teams do at outside events, I'm under the impression that they're treated exactly as anyone else - and the way the wild card system worked in 2013 also backs this up.

District Teams do not earn points for their actions at any Regionals they may attend, but are still eligible for Team awards at those events, and any benefits that may go along with winning those awards, such as earning their way to the FIRST Championship. However, if a District Team does earn a slot at the FIRST Championship while attending a Regional event, that slot does count against the total Championship allocation the District is receiving for the season.

According to the verbiage there, any team from a district system that earns a Championship spot at an outside event will 'remove' that spot from their District's count. Without being told specifically otherwise, I'm left to believe that this will hold true for 'historic' qualifiers as well, especially considering the way the wildcard system worked in regards to these teams last year.

Originally Posted by FRC Blog 9/21/2012

If a team who wins a Regional in 2013 – in other words, if a team who is a member of the Winning Alliance – has already qualified for Championship at an earlier Regional in 2013, a ‘Wild Card’ slot is created at the Regional which they just won.

Note that only performance in the 2013 FRC season is considered in creating and awarding Wild Card slots. Championship status based on pre-qualification (Original and Sustaining Teams, Hall of Fame Teams, 2012 FIRST Championship Winners, etc.) has no bearing on this system.

Again, the wildcard excerpt is from last year's rules, so it may be changed this year, although I doubt that it'll change all that much.

The real shame here is that it puts a lot of teams in a bad spot here, regardless of their status of being a 'historic qualifier'. It seems that with the way that things are moving, most teams are forced to make a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't decision' in regards to competing outside of their District.

It seems that a lot of what we're beginning to talk about, specifically Championship Spots, and Advancing to the the next 'level' of play, are all the growing pains that we're experiencing as we're crossing the threshold where the traditional Championship Qualification Methods no longer work. Just playing the numbers game here, but as of right now, the qualification spots (traditional) break down something like this: ~100 Teams From the (4) District Systems, ~330 Teams From Traditional Regionals (6 Teams @ ~55 Events?), ~20-25 Historic Qualifiers for a total of 450 Teams, Maximum... Obviously, this math can't work (the Championship would be far too big) so it seems like someone, somewhere, is counting on teams making spots disappear either by 'double qualifying' or 're-qualifying'. In the case of historic qualifiers, it may be that we need to regard this as more of a safety net for an off year rather than a 'defacto' qualification.

[Carol]

Originally Posted by thefro526

If we're forced to opt out of going to District Championships just because we wanted to travel elsewhere, then something's wrong..

Maybe I read it wrong, but where does it say a team CANNOT go to it's District Championship if it has competed at an outside Regional? To me it says that if you go to an outside Regional and qualify there for World Champs, then your district qualifies one less team for World Champs. You would still have to attend two district events in order to get enough points to qualify for the district champs, but if a team has the money and time to attend two districts, one outside regional, and district champs, go for it.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Carol

Maybe I read it wrong, but where does it say a team CANNOT go to it's District Championship if it has competed at an outside Regional? To me it says that if you go to an outside Regional and qualify there for World Champs, then your district qualifies one less team for World Champs. You would still have to attend two district events in order to get enough points to qualify for the district champs, but if a team has the money and time to attend two districts, one outside regional, and district champs, go for it.

Carol, you're correct, as things are now, a Team can travel anywhere that their resources and schedule allows (if there are event openings) regardless of their involvement in the district system.

My comment was directed at an idea suggested a page or two back (scattered discussion throughout posts 79-97), specifically saying that a it might be wise for there to be a way to 'opt out of the District Championship' if a team wanted to go to an outside regional.

[Citrus Dad]

Here's my thoughts on how the District scoring should be changed as its implemented more widely:

- Losses in elimination rounds should count against a team, say -1.
- Also, later wins should gain more wait, beyond simply 5 more points. This will give a bigger distinction for teams that make it to the finals, more than just 5 more points. Winning an overall event should be worth much more than winning 100% of the matches (e.g. 24 points for going 12-0 vs 30 points for winning the Regional.) Probably should aim for winning the regional to be worth 48 points instead (double winning the qualifying rounds). Scoring 6 points for quarters, 8 points for semis and 10 points for finals would do that.
- Finally, you should normalize on a non-integer basis as a percentage. It's more difficult to win more matches in a longer tourney because of the abuse of the robots, but the current scaling doesn't give full credit for that.