Go to Post We have donut eating contests to see who has the best legs. We paint our pigs. We argue about which time zone we are in. About 400,000 of us gather together to watch cars go around in a circle. We also build robots.Yep, our cultural norm is a bit different. - Andy Baker [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 11:37
SharkBite
 
Posts: n/a
i know for some teams the one coach rule is a dissapointment for the coaches, but to be perfectly honest the driver team should be fine without them. Unless the driver is brand new, they tend to be the strategist on our team and it works out really well in most cases. Sometimes a coach can offer insight on something or help to calculate the current score but two coaches are not needed to do this. Also, a relatively inactive human player (once the balls are gone, thats it) can be used to help tally the score as well. Even so, the extra person to help carry equiptment will be missed


Becky
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 13:47
Unsung FIRST Hero
Ed Sparks Ed Sparks is offline
Engineer/Mentor/Inspector
AKA: FirstCadLibrary Guy, Inspector Dude
FRC #3959 (Formally with FRC-34)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 624
Ed Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ed Sparks Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Sparks
Unhappy You've missed the point ......

Sharkbite,


It's not about extra eyes, or an extra brain, or someone to help carry hardware. It's about wanting to go to the battle. It's just as much an adrenaline rush for the mentors as it is for the student drivers and human player. It's about celebrating all of the hard work that we (mentors) put into the program. It's about being a team in competition as we were in the design phase. It's about the high fives and the "That's OK" huggs.

I (and all of the other mentors) know that the students could compete without any mentor coaches. I just think "inspiration" applies to both the students and mentors and this new rule erodes mentor inspiration.

I hope FIRST re-thinks this ......
__________________
Ed Sparks

MECH TECH FRC-3959
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 13:59
kevinw kevinw is offline
Registered User
#0065
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Farmington Hills
Posts: 132
kevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to allkevinw is a name known to all
Yeah, like what he said

My sentiments exactly, Ed.
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 14:10
Anne Shade Anne Shade is offline
Maryland Regional Director
AKA: Formely Anne Bergeron
no team (FIRST Chesapeake)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Pasadena, MD
Posts: 254
Anne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond reputeAnne Shade has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Anne Shade
On the team that I was on last year (608), we, the Georgia Tech students, acted as coaches/engineers. We found that when up on stage, we were often treated as high school students. The adults often try to take control of the situation and be very forceful. They often did not listen to ideas from us or high school students. Students are able to develop adequate strategies and to know enough about their robot to compete on stage (or at least they should). I from experience that being on stage is a great high but these are high school teams and the high school students should at least have the oppportunity to run the show. I agree with there only being one adult per team so that the students are able to make the decisions. I realize that not all the adults are this way but there are enough that are to make it difficult for us younger people. I do agree that having 2 coaches per team would be much better but I think FIRST wanted to test a new method. Just my opinion.
__________________
Anne Shade
Past Teams: 132, 408, 608, 832, 1002, and 2377
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 14:11
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Johnson Joe Johnson is offline
Engineer at Medrobotics
AKA: Dr. Joe
FRC #0088 (TJ2)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Raynham, MA
Posts: 2,648
Joe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
I am with Ed

I think it was just fine having 2 mentors with the drive team.

I agree that it is inspirational for the kids and for the mentors to be out there with the drive team.

Our team has historically had a teacher and an engineer as coaches on the field.

This year we will have only one or the other. We will get over it but it will be difficult to choose between them.

I join with Ed in his call for FIRST to rethink this rule.

Joe J.
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 15:00
s_alaniz s_alaniz is offline
Registered User
#0057 (Leopards)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 73
s_alaniz is an unknown quantity at this point
I agree with FIRST

... I Agree with FIRST... not that I DISagree with everyone else. There HAS to be a LEAST one mentor coach. Leadership inpiration should extend to the actual competition so the adult mentor coach is NECESSARY. Besides, some teams DO need an adult coach to bear the ultimate responsibility for the team's performance. That's not a responsibility I would put on a student. (That sound was the sound of all 600+ teams chimeing in saying THEIR team is the exception and really don't need adults...)

I think it's interesting so many people want to defend additional coaches because of the "Thrill" of being up front. And a little disappointing. Last year, I got to go on stage as a coach but not because of our team. PBS was filming our team for a documentary and they were having problems keeping their "on robot camera" operating so I went along to help with technical difficulties. Yes it IS an exciting place. However, in my previous 5 years as a mentor I have never been on stage and if you think about it, MOST team student members participating in F.I.R.S.T. will never get to go on stage.
We have a problem every year becase EVERY team member wants to be the guy on the joysticks. I tell our students that's not what it's all about and as a mentor showing example, I defer to people I think are better suited as coaches. I sit in the stands, I cheer, (I do my bird imitations), I do what I can to support the team. I think this is also part of the "Gracious Professionalism" we point to as a hallmark of F.I.R.S.T. I will not be on stage at all this year and that's OK. I know who I believe is best suited as team coach so I have no problem with the one coach rule.

Two coaches would be fine, but NOT just for the "Thrill" factor.


Best to all

Steve


"What good is technology if you can't abuse it?" - Ted Forth
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 15:08
Unsung FIRST Hero
Ed Sparks Ed Sparks is offline
Engineer/Mentor/Inspector
AKA: FirstCadLibrary Guy, Inspector Dude
FRC #3959 (Formally with FRC-34)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Posts: 624
Ed Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond reputeEd Sparks has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Ed Sparks Send a message via Yahoo to Ed Sparks
Unhappy What can I say .....

It's great that we can all have our own opinion........

but

It saddens me that you are reducing what I'm trying to say to getting a "Thrill".

That's not it either.

I'm done with this thread, not that I'm taking my soccer ball and going home, I just said what needed to be said and I hope others will do the same. I leave it to the other mentors.

__________________
Ed Sparks

MECH TECH FRC-3959
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 15:44
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,391
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Where do I stand

Well, here goes my take ... I, too will probably be sticking my neck out.

I have been following this debate since before last year's forums. Last year's competition seemed to bring out the worst in all of us, students, coaches, etc. Now I know that not everyone acted like a ninny, BUT this debate really heated up after the bad experiences started piling up. I watched this discussion turn into a mentor vs. student debate. There are several students on this forum that have taken the stand that they don't need the engineers/mentors, etc. I also understand that there are several student run teams. If you think that you are doing just fine without any mentors, you have missed the entire point of FIRST. One thing FIRST is about is giving young adults people they can look up to, and be inspired by, other than professional athletes, racecar drivers, etc. Think of it as giving young people real life heros. The tone I have noticed in MANY student posts dating back to last year is that of "we really don't need the adults" and that saddens me. Like many other engineers on this forum, I give my heart and soul to our team and if our students had a "we don't need the engineers" attitude, I guarantee I would not be involved. FIRST is about inspiring students, FIRST is about getting students excited about engineering and the sciences, FIRST is NOT about pitting the students against the mentors.

My stands on this issue:

1. reducing the number to 4 is the biggest problem

2. Telling teams how many of the coaches have to be adults/students is detrimental

3. By FIRST reducing the number of adult mentors, they are saying that the adults are getting in the way ... wrong message.

-Paul
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 15:58
s_alaniz s_alaniz is offline
Registered User
#0057 (Leopards)
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 73
s_alaniz is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: You've missed the point ......

[quote]Originally posted by Ed Sparks
[b]Sharkbite,


"It's about wanting to go to the battle. It's just as much an adrenaline rush for the mentors as it is for the student drivers and human player. "


Geez Ed... Sorry if I mis-interperted what you wrote.... but hey that sentence sounded like "Thrill" to me... oh well... MY idea of a thrill is spinning around until I fall down..(which has gotten a LOT harder with all these soccer balls laying around everywhere...)

Best


Steve



"So you're saying we can look forward to robots behaving badly and demanding higher salaries." - Sally Forth
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 16:28
Wayne Doenges's Avatar
Wayne Doenges Wayne Doenges is offline
We Build Robots......and Careers
AKA: Warthog
FRC #1501 (Team T.H.R.U.S.T.)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Huntington, Indiana
Posts: 6,324
Wayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond reputeWayne Doenges has a reputation beyond repute
I feel like putting my $.02 worth in now.

Let me get this straight, most of the high schools ask a company to sponsor them with money and engineers. The engineers volunteer there time for six weeks, coming in everyday after work and weekends too. NOW the students tell these same engineers that they don't need them anymore and they don't want to share the glory with them. Is that what I'm hearing?
This is my second year with Huntington High School. I have no kids but I enjoy helping the students. If these same students told me this I would be gone in a second.

*puts on flameproof lab coat*

Wayne Doenges
__________________
We Build Robots and Careers
World's - #1 seeded in Archimedes, WON Archimedes and made it to Einstein
2016 NC District - Guilford County. #13 seeded, Finalist. Won Quality award.
IN District - Tippecanoe. #4 seeded. Won Innovation in Control award.
IN District - Perry Meridian. #3 seeded. Finalist. Won Excellence in Engineering award.
IN District - State Championship. #1 seeded. Finalist. Won Excellence inn Engineering award.



  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 17:17
keith edwards's Avatar
keith edwards keith edwards is offline
Registered User
#1064
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3
keith edwards is an unknown quantity at this point
one

before going into the one negative thing I have to say about this year's game, I should say that over all I think it's great. this could be the best year ever in terms of competition that is inspiring to watch. congratulations to the game designers.

now about the one coach rule... there was a nice balance in the two coach system. what I observed is that when things go well, the student drivers get the credit, and when things go poorly, the criticism was received impartially and constructively by the two coaches. this is a nice structure, the coach is doing a high pressure job and deserves a buddy who can co-witness what happened in the players station and defray any second guessing.

narrowing down the coaching responsibility to one puts
an unreasonable amount of pressure on a single person.

not only is it impossible for one person to reliably keep track of enough information in real time to make the 'right' decisions, but one person has to shoulder the responsibility for making the right calls under pressure. in spite of people's best intentions, this structure is baiting a lot of second-guessing and blame, and we should avoid that systematically rather than just hoping no one ever gets emotional and waiting till afterwards to regret it.

I think, whatever it was they were trying to achieve with
this change, there must be a better way of acomplishing it.

plus, from a long term view, I think two coaches allows for better continuity. when someone new has to go in, they won't have to go up alone and inexperienced.

and I don't agree that the human player can simply take up the slack.. if you are really trying to compete to the best of your team's ability with a carefully analyzed strategy, it's hard enough to make the right last second call (especially this year!) from the sideline with no other responsibilities, it's even harder on the field.

whether or not they end up changing the rule, I do hope they sit down and seriously rethink it with an open mind.
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 19:24
Kit Gerhart's Avatar
Kit Gerhart Kit Gerhart is offline
Mentor, coach, whatever--
FRC #0233 ("The Pink Team")
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL USA
Posts: 559
Kit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kit Gerhart
Last year was not typical

Quote:
Originally posted by Anne Bergeron
On the team that I was on last year (608), we, the Georgia Tech students, acted as coaches/engineers. We found that when up on stage, we were often treated as high school students. The adults often try to take control of the situation and be very forceful. They often did not listen to ideas from us or high school students.
It is unfortunate that you were treated badly because you looked like kids. It certainly shouldn't have been that way. You need to remember, though, that last year's competition tended to bring out the worst in everyone. When you have 20 people, each having their own ideas, trying to work out a plan in about 3 minutes is not a recipe for civil discourse. With the 2 on 2 game, things go a whole lot more smoothly. I suspect that things will go better for you, whether two coaches or one.
__________________
Team 45, TechnoKats, 1996-2002
Team 1062, The Storm, 2003
Team 233, "The Pink Team," 2004-present

The views I express here are mine, and mine alone, not those of my team, FIRST, or my previous teams.
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 19:38
team222badbrad's Avatar
team222badbrad team222badbrad is offline
3D Printing Specialist
AKA: Bradley Rigdon
FRC #0222 (The Tigertrons)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Tunkhannock, PA
Posts: 1,091
team222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond reputeteam222badbrad has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to team222badbrad
Wink What coach??

What coach are you guys talking about?? Whats a coach?? I don's see any coaches around here! What is there to compain about it should be 5 students and no coaches!! This year we are going to have 2 student drivers, 1 student human player, and 1 student spotter! The only case when we ever have adults is in emergencies!......
__________________
Tigertrons are on Facebook!

http://www.printo3d.com

16th FIRST season for me.
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 20:21
meaubry meaubry is offline
volunteer helper
FRC #6099 (Knights)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Shelby Twp, Mi
Posts: 784
meaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond reputemeaubry has a reputation beyond repute
Wow, the water looks knida hot in here - wonder if I should just jump in, they say thats the easiest way to get used to it - so here goes.
Coaches - How many has always been a function of the rules, not the roles. That's why some teams send out students, some send out adults (mentors, coaches, teachers, engineers - pick from the list).
If the rules were set up 10 years ago, that there wouldn't be any - we all wouldn't have had the opportunities to participate as coaches. I look at this as "The" challange this year - the game is a great game - very strategic - and I predict very much like a professional basketball game (if you want to see the game, tune in for the last few seconds)
Due to it being so strategic this year, the communication and planning and revising of plans at the end is going to be the critical skill needed to be successful. All FIRST has done, is make that challenge extremely difficult. Geez, ya think that might have been done on purpose?
The results of taking a coach away, creates a completely new set of dynamics that has to be dealt with - start planning now how to split up the responsibilities.
As to having 2 spots that adults could occupy on the playing field - well, I don't like it much either, but I can live with it as everyone else will also. Those that know me, know that I LOVE coaching and its been tough the last few years not being the coach on the field - but I have learned alot by observing from the sideline and sharing that with the adults that were coaching. I don't think FIRST changed this because they wanted to upset us adults - or to send a message that FIRST is suppose to be for students and this is how they will even things up. They did it as part of the problem to solve. I have faith that each team will indeed solve it in the best way that suits your team. Good luck this year - don't hurt your brains too much, and I hope everyones feeling are comforted by the time the competition starts.
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2002, 21:49
Kit Gerhart's Avatar
Kit Gerhart Kit Gerhart is offline
Mentor, coach, whatever--
FRC #0233 ("The Pink Team")
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Cape Canaveral, FL USA
Posts: 559
Kit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond reputeKit Gerhart has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kit Gerhart
The purpose of my earlier post(s) to this thread was to point out that there are some people on FIRST teams who like being "where the action is." I am one of those people, and for adults, that means the "coach" position.

Regarding adults vs students, there are both adults and students who would be good, and bad in the coach/strategist/spotter role. Also, there are adults who would be good as drivers, operators, and human players, though I don't advocate that being allowed.

The bottom line is that there are enough adults who like "being out there" that FIRST is ultimately going to lose some engineers if there is to be only one possible position for adults on the playing field. Fortunately, there are a lot of adults who don't want to be coaches, and there are a lot of students who don't want to be drivers. Otherwise we WOULD have a problem.

As far as the NEED for 2 coaches vs 1 , all the teams are in the same boat, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. The spotting and ball counting won't be as good as it would be with 2 additional people per alliance, if they are well organized, but it will be equal for both alliances.

This will probably be my last post to this thread. It's time to go find out how hard our robot will pull.
__________________
Team 45, TechnoKats, 1996-2002
Team 1062, The Storm, 2003
Team 233, "The Pink Team," 2004-present

The views I express here are mine, and mine alone, not those of my team, FIRST, or my previous teams.

Last edited by Kit Gerhart : 10-01-2002 at 00:03.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Favorite rule. :) Useless member Rules/Strategy 15 01-03-2003 00:44
Proposed New Rule M11 Joe Johnson Rules/Strategy 14 04-02-2003 14:41
Rule C1 Justin Stiltner Rules/Strategy 9 05-01-2003 22:59
Do away with the 2-minute rule! archiver 2000 3 23-06-2002 23:17
1 coach rule Mike Soukup Rules/Strategy 14 07-01-2002 22:27


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:08.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi