Why can there be adult coaches on the drive team?

[adlasa]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Here are some prior discussions on this topic.

From 2012: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=105371
From 2011: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=93881
From 2009: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=77390
From 2008: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=67426
From 2006: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=45367

Thank you for the links of the previous discussion, I should have done a better job searching for those.

Their are clearly some merits to having adults on the drive team and also downsides, there will probably never be a right answer.

But, one interesting argument I saw was: If adults can be coaches why cant they also drive the robot? Can anyone expand on that question?

[LeelandS]

Okay, guys. I know the Chief Delphi reflex is to dog pile on the person who starts the thread. Here's the thing: Most of these threads turn in to heated wars about whether or not mentor coaches should be allowed. I think this is a genuine question as to why? Personally, I think a mentor or student coach fits fine into the scope of FIRST.

If it's a student; well, FIRST is about the students. Students taking control and driving their own future. So yes, a student coach fits perfectly for FIRST. The students drive, the students strategize, the students compete.

Conversely, a mentor coach is a good fit as well. Because, yes, FIRST is about the students driving their own future; though they are under the direction of professional, experienced mentors. A drive team with a mentor coach has the student driving, competing, being part of the action, while the mentor (who is absolutely forbidden from touching controls) is hanging back, supervising, providing insight and instruction.

As to why adults can't drive, well, I don't feel like that is a good fit in FIRST. As I've said and we should all know, FIRST is an organization centered around students. It doesn't seem right then for adults to take control of the teams creation if we're trying to develop and inspire students.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by LeelandS

If it's a student; well, FIRST is about the students.

Nope. FIRST is about culture change. It's about changing perceptions that STEM isn't "hip". It's not about education or students exactly. It's about showing them that STEM is as cool as playing in the NFL.

[LeelandS]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Nope. FIRST is about culture change. It's about changing perceptions that STEM isn't "hip". It's not about education or students exactly. It's about showing them that STEM is as cool as playing in the NFL.

Not trying to start an argument or nitpick semantics here... But what exactly would the point of such a culture change be if not for students? The culture change is to encourage the next generation to pick up STEM. The next generation is the current students. If FIRST is about the culture change...

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by LeelandS

Not trying to start an argument or nitpick semantics here... But what exactly would the point of such a culture change be if not for students? The culture change is to encourage the next generation to pick up STEM. The next generation is the current students. If FIRST is about the culture change...

Ah, I started out nitpicking. Your assertion that students need to be a focus is accurate. I'm merely asserting that they aren't THE focus implication being that there are other things that also must be focused on as well if we are to attain our goals.

[magnets]

The answer to this question really depends on the team. On our team, we never even think about having an adult coach. Ever. The students would kill the mentors. Our team works on the theory that student build the robot, and mentors provide engineering guidance. However, many teams are much different. For instance, 148's idea is to have mentors and students work with each other with equal roles. As a result, the students may not do as much work, but they still get as much inspiration, and get to work on and get exposed some of the more advanced and technical stuff on FRC robots. There are fantastic teams with adult coaches, and fantastic teams with student coaches.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by magnets

For instance, 148's idea is to have mentors and students work with each other with equal roles. As a result, the students may not do as much work, but they still get as much inspiration, and get to work on and get exposed some of the more advanced and technical stuff on FRC robots.

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

Our team emphasizes a partnership between students and mentors in all aspects of our program. Students and mentors work together on brainstorming.
Students and mentors work together on design.
Our team benefits from a sheet-metal sponsor, who helps fabricate our "bent" parts.
Students do almost all of the manufacturing of our "machined" parts.
Students do almost all of the robot assembly.
Students and mentors work together on programming.
Students and mentors work together on iteration and debugging.
Students and mentors share responsibility at competition.
Our driveteam contains 3 students and 1 mentor coach.

I will say...
To imply that our students "may not do as much work" is funny to me, and would cause a lot of eye-rolls from the students on our team.

[magnets]

Originally Posted by JVN

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

Our team emphasizes a partnership between students and mentors in all aspects of our program. Students and mentors work together on brainstorming.
Students and mentors work together on design.
Our team benefits from a sheet-metal sponsor, who helps fabricate our "bent" parts.
Students do almost all of the manufacturing of our "machined" parts.
Students do almost all of the robot assembly.
Students and mentors work together on programming.
Students and mentors work together on iteration and debugging.
Students and mentors share responsibility at competition.
Our driveteam contains 3 students and 1 mentor coach.

I will say...
To imply that our students "may not do as much work" is funny to me, and would cause a lot of eye-rolls from the students on our team.

I didn't mean it that way at all. In fact, I think that running things your way can be better and less frustrating. I know that the way your team runs is fantastic, and in no way was I trying to say that your students didn't work hard. They must work hard in order to make such great robots. What I was trying to say was that on a team like yours, the students and the mentors work together. As a result, the team is more efficient, and doesn't waste time/resources, because the adults make more rational and have more experience to back up their decisions.

[bachster]

One consideration I don't see mentioned much in these discussions is the value of the competition experience for the whole team, not just the drive team. All the team members who designed, built, programmed, marketed, videotaped, fundraised, scouted, etc. have a vested interest in seeing the fruits of their labor meet their full potential. Choice of drive team members, including coach, may have a huge impact on ensuring that the strategy chosen by the team is executed, that the scouting data is utilized, and that the robot performs to its technical capabilities during match play.

Imagine being a programmer who spent 6 weeks of her life perfecting autonomous code only to watch helplessly from the stands while the robot crashes into the wall because the drive team failed to set it up properly. Or being a scout who has been running around all weekend gathering data and analyzing alliance and opponent capabilities, only to watch that analysis become meaningless when a coach doesn’t assert him- or herself to execute the best strategy.

Depending on the team, having a mentor in the drive coach role may be the best way to provide the most students the inspiration that comes from seeing your “baby” succeed, in whatever way you define success.

To comment specifically on the (unfortunately commonly cited) concerns that an adult coach can be intimidating and overbearing to alliance members: I would sincerely hope that any mentors in the drive coach role would consider themselves mentors to all students in FIRST, not just those with the same team number. Whether it’s introducing new ways of thinking about strategy, modeling professional communication, or just staying grounded during tense situations, this can be a good opportunity for students on other teams to benefit from another type of mentoring relationship than what they normally experience. A drive coach who strays from Gracious Professional behavior, whether student or adult, may need to be reminded of FIRST’s priorities by his or her own teammates/mentors, the formal complaint system, a one on one conversation with the affected party, or whatever other mechanism is appropriate. It is difficult to change culture with rules – if mentor coaches were outlawed, the net effect could very well be that by trying to eliminate a few instances of negative experience, even more opportunities for positive experience are also eliminated.

For those long-standing mentor coaches: are you doing what you can to mentor all students you come into contact with? I hope that by getting a chance to interact with you, my students - both those on the drive team and those watching their robot execute a strategy alongside yours – are inspired by the experience.

[kuraikou]

For our team it is simple, our Mentors have 7ish years of first experience both as students and as mentors, so they simply keep their hands off and tell us what to do such as what discs to get or reminders on what to watch out for.

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by JVN

I would not comment in this thread, except our team was specifically mentioned and perhaps misrepresented...

This is why I think CD users should stay away from making statements or assumptions about other teams without specific involvement or understanding of the team.

624 has always had a student coach, and that has worked well for us as the drive team can fully understand each other and have a common basis on which to build upon; that is they see each other every day at school and already have an existing and good relationship. We don't have to start from scratch. It also emphasizes more student-driven leadership.

However, there is nothing wrong with an adult coach, for the reasons others have already mentioned. Both sides can be argued for and rightly defended. It boils down to team philosophy and structure.

[Ashwin775]

I'll answer when you find a student football coach

(coming form a student driver, with a team which has an excellent adult coach)

[jijiglobe]

The reason the students are constantly yielding to the adults at strategy meetings isn't because the adults are older, its because the adults are the drive coaches. Having someone versed in strategy can help a team during matches so teams don't have to train someone new every year. Someone who's been in the game for a number of years is more likely to keep a level head in bad situation and make strategic plays. Having this option open allows some teams to take advantage of it to do better at competition while allowing students to fulfil the role if necessary. Also, having an adult drive coach does mean that drivers are more likely to listen to what their coaches are saying. In short, forcing teams to go one way or another is stupid because there are advantages to having a student drive coach and advantages to having an adult one.

[Coach Norm]

According to Wikipedia: In sports, a coach is a person involved in the direction, instruction and training of the operations of a sports team or of individual sportspeople. A coach may also be a teacher.

In addition Wikipedia says: Students at the University of Oxford in the early nineteenth-century used the word informally to refer to a private tutor who would "carry" a less able student through his examinations. Hence the meaning of the word was extended to encompass any instructor or trainer.

I am the drive coach for our team at our FRC regional contests. I have a background of coaching high school sports for 17+ years. I agree with many responders here that each team should do what is best for their team.
I know of several teams who were have partnered with at tournaments who use students as drive coaches and have had great success.
We as a team believe that each alliance should have say in the strategy but also that a higher ranked team should have large say in this strategy.

I can honestly say that coaching can be a tough position to be in. There are lots of things happening extremely fast out there and it is very important to be very knowledgeable of all six teams on the field at that current time. An effective coach needs to have a good scout team and awareness of the capabilities of the robots on the field. Strategy is something that should change not only from match to match but also during the match.

I also am believer that any coach on the field should be responsible to all three team members of the alliance. The coach should not intimidate any students on the alliance. It is very important for the coach to be positive and try to improve all team members of the alliance when he has the chance. This includes before match, in match as well as after the match is over.

FIRST is about causing change. We as individuals and teams should respect the decisions of each individual team to do what is best for them: student coach or adult coach. I do believe that the decisions of the coach has a huge impact on the success of the team and the alliance.

[lnex1357]

So as many good people have noted, the discussions on this forum regarding this topic abound in plenty. I would like to offer up our perspective on team 2168 via the power point provided at the link below. Each year for the past 3 years, I have had the opportunity to speak on several FRC team topics at the CT FIRST University Day. For the past couple years one of the workshops that I work to provide is on the fundamentals for creating a competitive drive team. Note that these slides represent our expressed opinions based on experience, so glean from them as you so desire. The only further comment I would like to make to the author of this thread is that it is important to never underestimate the value of mature, consistent, experienced, leadership. Especially in a high stress, time constrained environment. It is my belief, that the best teams in the world are predicated on the quality, consistency, maturity, and experience of mentors that are devoted to the team year after year. This thought process for our team translates into the results we expect in preparation and execution by our drive team. Best of luck as you search for answers. Never stop trying to improve.

-Josh

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0A...it?usp=sharing

(In case the google drive link somehow disappears an older version of these slides is available on our website www.team2168.org. The latest version of these slides will be posted once we are done re-configuring our website back-end.