A New Way to Scout

[Roger]

Originally Posted by khanh111

As far as I have seen, there are five methods of scouting ...

There is another method, which, for lack of a better term, I would refer as the "Mycroft Holmes" method (Wikipedia's description is incomplete). It is someone that somehow can keep statistics of all the teams in his/her head, and be able to balance off which team would be good, and which to watch out. We've had a couple like that, and they are much better than any other system. I told the team's teachers to look out for a sports fanatic student for this role.

[Chadfrom308]

I made this really advanced google docs scouting sheet

Here is how it worked:
1. The scouter filled out a little form on google
2. The form automatically sends the data to a google spreadsheet
a. One page in the spreadsheet is for the raw data
b. one is for the data that is sorted by teams and averaged
c. one is for the interface that we can use for graphs
3.The spreadsheet automatically sorts all the information and makes it easy for me or whoever is looking through it to see all the matches and trends in near real-time

The only downfall to this is you need internet (which was solved by writing down the matches and giving it to somebody that did)

and you need people who want to scout (which we had like nobody) (it also doesnt help that you dont do well)

If anyone wants to know how I did it, just ask, its pretty simple

Here is a picture of the interface, which has been improved with graphs and individual results after that competition
http://imageshack.com/a/img834/186/k4qi.png

Please note that all the boxes had info at it at one time. The code somehow broke when I was copying it for another competition

[saikiranra]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

I made this really advanced google docs scouting sheet

Here is how it worked:
1. The scouter filled out a little form on google
2. The form automatically sends the data to a google spreadsheet
a. One page in the spreadsheet is for the raw data
b. one is for the data that is sorted by teams and averaged
c. one is for the interface that we can use for graphs
3.The spreadsheet automatically sorts all the information and makes it easy for me or whoever is looking through it to see all the matches and trends in near real-time

The only downfall to this is you need internet (which was solved by writing down the matches and giving it to somebody that did)

and you need people who want to scout (which we had like nobody) (it also doesnt help that you dont do well)

If anyone wants to know how I did it, just ask, its pretty simple

Here is a picture of the interface, which has been improved with graphs and individual results after that competition
http://imageshack.com/a/img834/186/k4qi.png

Please note that all the boxes had info at it at one time. The code somehow broke when I was copying it for another competition

Team 696 used a similar Google Docs based scouting system for the 2012 and 2013 official seasons. Although simple and easy to use to create a system, it has MAJOR downsides.

1. Google's systems have crashed at every single competition. It seems like Google Spreadsheets can not handle the amount of formulas needed for any meaningful analysis. Because of this, we were not able to access our data for our Friday night scouting meetings.

2. Its SLOW. At the height of it's lag, it took around 30 minutes for data to be submitted. In addition, the sheets sometimes take forever to load.

I warned a team going to Champs not to use a Google Docs system, and they faced similar results (for post-day analysis).


If not for these, Google Docs would be the perfect scouting solution. This summer, we created a scouting system running off our website that would be able to input data, analyze the data, create rankings and team reports, and create a match strategy printout that people would be able to send to a printer in the pits. We successfully collaborated with 3476 and 3255 and used the system at IRI, Battle at the Border, and Fall Classic.

[Chadfrom308]

Originally Posted by saikiranra

Team 696 used a similar Google Docs based scouting system for the 2012 and 2013 official seasons. Although simple and easy to use to create a system, it has MAJOR downsides.

1. Google's systems have crashed at every single competition. It seems like Google Spreadsheets can not handle the amount of formulas needed for any meaningful analysis. Because of this, we were not able to access our data for our Friday night scouting meetings.

2. Its SLOW. At the height of it's lag, it took around 30 minutes for data to be submitted. In addition, the sheets sometimes take forever to load.

I warned a team going to Champs not to use a Google Docs system, and they faced similar results (for post-day analysis).


If not for these, Google Docs would be the perfect scouting solution. This summer, we created a scouting system running off our website that would be able to input data, analyze the data, create rankings and team reports, and create a match strategy printout that people would be able to send to a printer in the pits. We successfully collaborated with 3476 and 3255 and used the system at IRI, Battle at the Border, and Fall Classic.

Really? I have never experienced any lag or slowness from google drive, and it has been up 100% of the time...

[saikiranra]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

Really? I have never experienced any lag or slowness from google drive, and it has been up 100% of the time...

Always worked in testing for us too. The problem is when it gets a large amount of data....
By the time any useful data can be extracted, there are about 120 lines of data. This is more than fine for Excel, but really causes problems on Drive. (Though, we had a few thousand formulas and a few sheets)

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by saikiranra

Always worked in testing for us too. The problem is when it gets a large amount of data....
By the time any useful data can be extracted, there are about 120 lines of data. This is more than fine for Excel, but really causes problems on Drive. (Though, we had a few thousand formulas and a few sheets)

We run a VERY large gdocs based scouting system, that is doing a lot more than just averaging (such that when data is entered, a lot recalculates).

Even with this, it runs. I suggest you look into what runs fast/slow on gdoc, and thoroughly understand the process it uses when to update cells. Short answer is anytime cell A changes, every cell that references it upates, and that cycle repeats.

Don't use vlookups. At all. Even once. Just don't do it. Use index(match()) instead. Google it for good tutorials, this doesn't load the range per each cell called. Importrange/sortrange can also be used where vlookup would be used by some people with better results. More or less, don't use vlookup and don't use cell by cell calls to pass entire ranges if you can help it.

If you want me to take a look at your system and offer more specific advice I can. I'm not saying this to criticize you guys, but I'm 100% sure the issue here is implementation, not google docs.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

We run a VERY large gdocs based scouting system, that is doing a lot more than just averaging (such that when data is entered, a lot recalculates).

Even with this, it runs. I suggest you look into what runs fast/slow on gdoc, and thoroughly understand the process it uses when to update cells. Short answer is anytime cell A changes, every cell that references it upates, and that cycle repeats.

Don't use vlookups. At all. Even once. Just don't do it. Use index(match()) instead. Google it for good tutorials, this doesn't load the range per each cell called. Importrange/sortrange can also be used where vlookup would be used by some people with better results. More or less, don't use vlookup and don't use cell by cell calls to pass entire ranges if you can help it.

If you want me to take a look at your system and offer more specific advice I can. I'm not saying this to criticize you guys, but I'm 100% sure the issue here is implementation, not google docs.

Not to criticize, honest question - If you're already doing VLOOKUP and INDEX type operations why not invest a little bit of time to learn how to do this stuff with a full blown relational database? It'd be faster performing, more scalable, more reliable, and teach students useful skills. I guess the only real issue would be a simple front end but that's not that bad to do any more…


Disclaimer - my bread and butter is databases, Postgres, SQL-Server, Mongo, CouchDB… When all you've got is a hammer every problem looks like a nail, I'm genuinely curious why so many people seem to shoehorn excel into a job for an actual DB.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Not to criticize, honest question - If you're already doing VLOOKUP and INDEX type operations why not invest a little bit of time to learn how to do this stuff with a full blown relational database? It'd be faster performing, more scalable, more reliable, and teach students useful skills. I guess the only real issue would be a simple front end but that's not that bad to do any more…


Disclaimer - my bread and butter is databases, Postgres, SQL-Server, Mongo, CouchDB… When all you've got is a hammer every problem looks like a nail, I'm genuinely curious why so many people seem to shoehorn excel into a job for an actual DB.

People/Resources. We can't dedicate programmers to this, and we're generally so short on programmers they are on the robot hte entire time.

Excel/Gdocs is a useful tool for ALL engineers, so in theory every student on the team should learn it.

A viable scouting system can be made in an hour easily if you're just doing averaging like most teams are. Less by an experienced user. You don't have to worry about potential errors/bugs you've introduced, etc... I don't buy the increased reliability argument.

Furthermore, the real big gain, is distribution. Every kid on the team has a google account, they have the scouting folder shared. Phones, tablets, laptops, etc... can all view it with no pain or hassle.

User interface as well, the UI is so much faster and easier to edit for people with no programming experience.

It has a lot of power for so little effort. It's the same reason why so many teams buy COTS shifters.

[saikiranra]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

We run a VERY large gdocs based scouting system, that is doing a lot more than just averaging (such that when data is entered, a lot recalculates).

Even with this, it runs. I suggest you look into what runs fast/slow on gdoc, and thoroughly understand the process it uses when to update cells. Short answer is anytime cell A changes, every cell that references it upates, and that cycle repeats.

Don't use vlookups. At all. Even once. Just don't do it. Use index(match()) instead. Google it for good tutorials, this doesn't load the range per each cell called. Importrange/sortrange can also be used where vlookup would be used by some people with better results. More or less, don't use vlookup and don't use cell by cell calls to pass entire ranges if you can help it.

If you want me to take a look at your system and offer more specific advice I can. I'm not saying this to criticize you guys, but I'm 100% sure the issue here is implementation, not google docs.

Sounds kind of like our old system.

That is probably it. We have a TON of vlookups, and that probably messed everything up. After finding the vlookups, we never tried to look for a more efficient method.
(Although I still am worried about losing the online data, after it consistently happened to us)


A few months ago, I would have loved for you to take a look at the system, but I invested quite literally my entire summer creating our own proprietary system, that somehow works.

Thank you for the offer!

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

Really? I have never experienced any lag or slowness from google drive, and it has been up 100% of the time...

Has anybody tried using IFTTT to text(SMS) data to a shared spreadsheet? Anyone with a cell phone could contribute to the data pool.

Scouters would need to open an IFTTT account and give it access to receive SMS/Texts (normal messaging rates apply), and Google account information to write to their Google Drive.

A Master Scout would need to designate a Spread Sheet file and share it with the other scouts. (All scouters would also automatically have access to the raw data in their Google Drive as well.)

If crowd scouting: On Thursday set up a scouting kiosk with a cellular hot spot for potential scouters to set up their account... or have the regional director e-mail all the teams ahead of time the set-up instructions.

PS. You can opt in the recipe to send/collect the phone number of the SMS sender. This would allow the master scout to text back anybody who is doing it wrong, or sort out all of their data and remove it from the pool. This would also release the phone numbers of the scouting participants to each other (no names attached). Not sure if that is a problem.

[jlmcmchl]

Originally Posted by Alpha Beta

Has anybody tried using IFTTT to text(SMS) data to a shared spreadsheet? Anyone with a cell phone could contribute to the data pool.

Scouters would need to open an IFTTT account and give it access to receive SMS/Texts (normal messaging rates apply), and Google account information to write to their Google Drive.

A Master Scout would need to designate a Spread Sheet file and share it with the other scouts. (All scouters would also automatically have access to the raw data in their Google Drive as well.)

If crowd scouting: On Thursday set up a scouting kiosk with a cellular hot spot for potential scouters to set up their account... or have the regional director e-mail all the teams ahead of time the set-up instructions.

PS. You can opt in the recipe to send/collect the phone number of the SMS sender. This would allow the master scout to text back anybody who is doing it wrong, or sort out all of their data and remove it from the pool. This would also release the phone numbers of the scouting participants to each other (no names attached). Not sure if that is a problem.

I use IFTTT for daily use, and I never realized it could do this. That's awesome.

I'm not going to grab a spreadsheet at the moment, but can you put data into hidden columns? Make the spreadsheet view only(And thus they can't directly open the hidden column) to everyone except the owner, and make a copy for the owner to check phone numbers in the hidden columns. From there, it's up to the owner to know when data is correct or faulty and let the users know how to improve their data input.

[Alpha Beta]

Originally Posted by jlmcmchl

I use IFTTT for daily use, and I never realized it could do this. That's awesome.

I'm not going to grab a spreadsheet at the moment, but can you put data into hidden columns? Make the spreadsheet view only(And thus they can't directly open the hidden column) to everyone except the owner, and make a copy for the owner to check phone numbers in the hidden columns. From there, it's up to the owner to know when data is correct or faulty and let the users know how to improve their data input.

As far as I can tell, people who have a shared copy of the document cannot enter data unless they have the rights to edit the spreadsheet, including every column that IFTTT is trying to write to. I did verify that they can enter data while the column is hidden.

Even if the owner hides and protectes a column the shared users could still make a copy of the spreadsheet and then as the owner of the copy unhide and unprotect the information.

[khanh111]

Originally Posted by Roger

There is another method, which, for lack of a better term, I would refer as the "Mycroft Holmes" method (Wikipedia's description is incomplete). It is someone that somehow can keep statistics of all the teams in his/her head, and be able to balance off which team would be good, and which to watch out. We've had a couple like that, and they are much better than any other system. I told the team's teachers to look out for a sports fanatic student for this role.

Our head scout for the last few years was this type of person. His skills were all enhanced by our data collection. It also made it easier for him to explain reasons to the rest of the team, which in turn allowed him to better develop strategies.

If anything, I think the "Mycroft Holmes" method should be supplemented by some form of collected hard data.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by khanh111

If anything, I think the "Mycroft Holmes" method should be supplemented by some form of collected hard data.

I agree 100%. There is no substitute for hard data, but having someone that actually remembers what the robots look like, how they play,what they do in a match and so on is very benefical. At events for my team, I watch one or two teams a match and write qualitative notes down. At the end of the event I know the basics of every team (and a lot about certain teams) and could make a pretty good pick list. But, I'm always surprised when going through the data to see how well or how poorly some teams actually do (consistency, especially in autonomous, is typically the biggest source for deviation). It simply comes down to not being able to watch every match for every team.

[brandon.cottrell]

Originally Posted by Roger

There is another method, which, for lack of a better term, I would refer as the "Mycroft Holmes" method (Wikipedia's description is incomplete). It is someone that somehow can keep statistics of all the teams in his/her head, and be able to balance off which team would be good, and which to watch out. We've had a couple like that, and they are much better than any other system. I told the team's teachers to look out for a sports fanatic student for this role.

While our team does have it's own form of scouting, I kinda think that this method is what suits me the most. I like to look at regionals I didn't attend and try to work out what teams had the most synergy, and what the best possible alliances would be.