FRC Blogged - FIRST® Choice Adds Additives

[billbo911]

Originally Posted by Madison

It seems that, by selecting to enter the printer lottery, you're likely to sacrifice any chance of selecting other high-value options.

It's hard to say what the impact of the choice is without seeing what else is available, though.

Jumping on this offer may, or may not, be in a team's best interest. As Madison pointed out, it's a gamble. Every team needs to weigh the cost of getting a 3D printer over other needs this coming season may present.

I'm thrilled that the offer has been made, but..... that doesn't necessarily mean we are going to jump on it.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by billbo911

Jumping on this offer may, or may not, be in a team's best interest. As Madison pointed out, it's a gamble. Every team needs to weigh the cost of getting a 3D printer over other needs this coming season may present.

I'm thrilled that the offer has been made, but..... that doesn't necessarily mean we are going to jump on it.

exactly. I'm excited about a free 3d printer as much as the next guy, but if I look back on it, there was very little, if anything, we could've used a 3d printer for on our robot last year. It will definitely be useful for small profile parts, but I may be more inclined to get a couple of batteries and some pneumatics equipment over a lottery ticket for a 3d printer (and while we do get credits back, all of the items we want could be gone by then).

[orangemoore]

How exactly does FIRST Choice Work? I am assuming that FIRST Choice will be replenished with new items after the first round. Is this true?

[DampRobot]

Looking on the bright side, it probably will free up Talons for those who don't want a printer.

[Christopher149]

One last note... Because the 3D Systems and MakerGear printers were funded with government money, there is an added requirement that the Team number, name, address, contact name, contact phone number, and contact email will be shared by FIRST with TNFIRST, the group that kindly assumed the responsibility inherent in the funding.

It's not explicit, but do those printers require the team be US-based? Not that it affects me, but we have lots of Canadian, Israeli, Mexican, etc friends.

[coalhot]

Rollin' the dice. FIRST seems to like to do this kind of "pick your poison" approach to the preseason; a kitbot that you must commit to without any sort of guiding details and now betting all your chips on one tool. It's somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating/aggravating.

Kudos to VEX, for saying: "Yes, we will give you a month to look at our new stuff. Here's the cad, go poke at it. You know what you're getting". I'm beginning to like the guys that aren't tied as closely to the hip to FIRST as everyone else. It's making for a more interesting preseason.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by coalhot

Kudos to VEX, for saying: "Yes, we will give you a month to look at our new stuff. Here's the cad, go poke at it. You know what you're getting". I'm beginning to like the guys that aren't tied as closely to the hip to FIRST as everyone else. It's making for a more interesting preseason.

Not saying it's a bad thing, but VEX is running a business whereas the kitbot plays a part of the game. VEX has no reason to delay their products until Kickoff (they would make less money), but there could be a very good reason why the kitbot is kept a secret.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by coalhot

Rollin' the dice. FIRST seems to like to do this kind of "pick your poison" approach to the preseason; a kitbot that you must commit to without any sort of guiding details and now betting all your chips on one tool. It's somewhat interesting and somewhat frustrating/aggravating.

Kudos to VEX, for saying: "Yes, we will give you a month to look at our new stuff. Here's the cad, go poke at it. You know what you're getting". I'm beginning to like the guys that aren't tied as closely to the hip to FIRST as everyone else. It's making for a more interesting preseason.

The kitbot can have specific parts for the game. I can't remember if it was 2010 or 2012 that it had a 'lift kit' to help it over the bump. But you generally know exactly what you're getting. You're getting c-channel (unless they changed to sheet this year) with some belts, pulleys, wheels, and a couple transmissions. There is really no mystery.

We've never struggled to use all the parts that come with a kitbot, though last year we opted for not getting one.

People looking at the 3D printers need to think very very hard about it.3d printers require specialized technical knowledge to set up, print, and maintain. In addition, teams have to ask themselves how useful a 3d printer would be to their FIRST program. I can't think of a single part on our robot last year that could have been 3D printed. Not one.

A lot of people think '3d printer! cool!" but don't really think about everything that has to go into making one work effectively. Heck, look how many FIRST choice 3D printer jobs were never purchased.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

People looking at the 3D printers need to think very very hard about it.3d printers require specialized technical knowledge to set up, print, and maintain. In addition, teams have to ask themselves how useful a 3d printer would be to their FIRST program. I can't think of a single part on our robot last year that could have been 3D printed. Not one.

A lot of people think '3d printer! cool!" but don't really think about everything that has to go into making one work effectively. Heck, look how many FIRST choice 3D printer jobs were never purchased.

Tom, you hit the nail on the head here. I've been responsible for running and servicing the 3D printers at my job for the last 5 years or so, and they're quirky machines at best (These are 'production' capacity machines). Yes, they do provide an awesome medium for prototyping and small parts production, but to truly make use of the machine's capabilities, the person operating it should have a good understanding of how the machine works. I can only imagine how the experience could be with a 'DIY' or Entry Level machine.

With that being sail, the 'ground floor' level of 3D printing is probably a bit more useful than you might think. There are a lot of parts that I've made over the years, spacers, mounting fixtures, gears, etc, that are fairly forgiving when printed as long as you know how to turn the machine on and press start. Things like sensor mounts and interfaces are probably a perfect example of this, last year our encoder mounts for just about everything (I think everything, by the CMP) were made using a 3D printer. None of them required exploitation of any of the 'tricks' that can be done with 3D printing, most were just plastic 'plates' with some sort of integrated spacer or interfacing geometry.

[MichaelBick]

While I know that we will opt out of the 3d printer, I think a 3d printer can be useful. If our team had a 3d printer, we wouldn't use it as a replacement for current manufacturing techniques. We would find new parts to make with a 3d printer that would make it a benefit to our team. Furthermore, we might use it to speed up our manufacturing. For example, even though we can turn spacers, we might start printing spacers so that we can spend our manpower on making other parts.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

The kitbot can have specific parts for the game. I can't remember if it was 2010 or 2012 that it had a 'lift kit' to help it over the bump. But you generally know exactly what you're getting. You're getting c-channel (unless they changed to sheet this year) with some belts, pulleys, wheels, and a couple transmissions. There is really no mystery.

We've never struggled to use all the parts that come with a kitbot, though last year we opted for not getting one.

They did release that this year's kit bot is sheet metal construction and it's aprox top speed.

As mentioned it could give hints to the game or rules. Last year it was set up to confirm to the new perimeter rules and keep a similar L x W ratio as the previous max dimensions. As you mentioned they included the lift kit in the past and they also included the game specific wheels for Lunacy.

[nicholsjj]

Wait, I was so caught up in the 3D printing part of the blog that I missed the most important part of it. We get 150! credits for round 1 of first choice and 450! for round two. That will either mean that some parts are going to have to be way upped in value or they will fly off the shelves faster than the towels at a Walmart on Thanksgiving!

[geomapguy]

Originally Posted by nicholsjj

Wait, I was so caught up in the 3D printing part of the blog that I missed the most important part of it. We get 150! credits for round 1 of first choice and 450! for round two. That will either mean that some parts are going to have to be way upped in value or they will fly off the shelves faster than the towels at a Walmart on Thanksgiving!

Or there are a lot of game pieces....

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by nicholsjj

Wait, I was so caught up in the 3D printing part of the blog that I missed the most important part of it. We get 150! credits for round 1 of first choice and 450! for round two. That will either mean that some parts are going to have to be way upped in value or they will fly off the shelves faster than the towels at a Walmart on Thanksgiving!

This is critical to the decision. After kickoff, once we know the game, and game-specific materials are available for 'free' on FIRSTChoice, those of us who have opted for, and received, the 3-D printer will have given up the privilege of obtaining these resources through FIRSTChoice.
So the decision becomes this: Do we want to buy a 3-D printer, after we have researched it, know exactly what we're getting, and can select any necessary upgrades with our own money? Or get one that may or may not be precisely what is perfect for our team, for 'free'? And in doing so, making us pay for any game-specific objects in January that other teams are receiving for 'free'.
Certainly makes the cheese more binding.
Also, I wouldn't automatically assume the kit chassis is c-channel-based. I have no direct evidence to the contrary, but it may be a dangerous assumption to make.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Taylor

And in doing so, making us pay for any game-specific objects in January that other teams are receiving for 'free'.

Also, I wouldn't automatically assume the kit chassis is c-channel-based. I have no direct evidence to the contrary, but it may be a dangerous assumption to make.

The kit chassis is sheet metal, that was announced over the summer somewhere.

As for game pieces, with a 3D printer maybe you can print them?

..
In any case, THANK YOU to FIRST for coming up with a reasonably sane distribution plan.