FIRST Choice 3D Printer Lottery

[seg9585]

Originally Posted by z_beeblebrox

Seen this?

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...Adds-Additives

I didn't! Thanks for the link z_beeblebrox.

Makes me wonder how many teams will go for the printer lottery, and even more specifically if you win the lottery, how likely you will get your "first choice" of printers. In my opinion the Replicator 2 is way more valuable than the Makergear M2 and slightly more than the Cube.
Also there are a TON of $100 vouchers available but how much can you get from each of these resources and on what timeline?

Agree with what was said that 3D printing is very time consuming and at times can be frustrating for new users. You can minimize cost of consumables (for example, no tape needed if you upgrade to a glass build plate) but the value is definitely there!

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by seg9585

In my opinion the Replicator 2 is way more valuable than the Makergear M2 and slightly more than the Cube.

Unless you intend to print ABS. The Replicator 2 is only designed and supported to print PLA. The Replicator 2X is only designed and supported to print ABS (even though it can print PLA you might have issues with MakerBot if you do that). The Makergear M2 can print both and it has a heated bed which you really want for ABS. You can always put it inside a cheap clear or translucent inverted storage box to trap the heat and increase the ambient temperature around the printer.

Also the MakerGear uses linear rails with ball bearing blocks as apposed to the bronze bushings used on the Replicators. Either work but the performance of the linear rails is better and achieve lower inertia (also generally decreased need for grease related maintenance). Up! printers also use linear rails and many of the Prusa reprap designs can be upgraded to linear round rod ball bearings.

The MakerBot Replicator 2 does have dual extruders. However I know that MakerGear M2 owners are considering solutions to that issue. I have yet to see the end result implemented.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

The Replicator 2X is only designed and supported to print ABS (even though it can print PLA you might have issues with MakerBot if you do that).

This is incorrect. The 2X will not have issues with PLA. It also will handle Nylon or PVA. It's explicitly supported by Makerbot (I called and asked them before I ordered mine).

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

This is incorrect. The 2X will not have issues with PLA. It also will handle Nylon or PVA. It's explicitly supported by Makerbot (I called and asked them before I ordered mine).

That's interesting because that differs from a conference call myself and others had with MakerBot and specifically MakerBot support in relation to a MakerBot 2X. When we mentioned that someone was using it to print PLA they suggested it was ill suited for that because it tends to get too hot. The issue is that if you print PLA and have issues will Makerbot provide support and if something happens while printing PLA will Makerbot accept it under MakerCare in the event replacement parts are required (MakerCare is only parts replacement not a warranty).

Given the design of the 2x dual extruder I won't disagree that if the temperature control is maintained it can extrude PLA and others were doing it quite well, but I am only repeating what we were told at length by ranking MakerBot support themselves.

I can't speak to nylon never tried it in the Replicator 2X and I have no intention of trying given that conversation unless Makerbot sells that filament to me for that use. I'm sure their PVA works I've used that before on other Replicator 2 and 2X.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

That's interesting because that differs from a conference call myself and others had with MakerBot and specifically MakerBot support in relation to a MakerBot 2X. When we mentioned that someone was using it to print PLA they suggested it was ill suited for that because it tends to get too hot. The issue is that if you print PLA and have issues will they provide support and if something happens while printing PLA will the accept it under MakerCare in the event replacement parts are required.

I can't speak to nylon never tried it in that printer. I'm sure their PVA works I've used that before.

Seems to me that piece of information would be in the user manual… rather than troubleshooting steps for printing with PLA (http://downloads.makerbot.com/replic...Manual_Eng.pdf See page 97)

[Rohawk1]

Originally Posted by EricH

I think you left the word "don't" out of your first post. Great way to confuse folks.

I agree, though. Now, I will point out that 3D printers can be very useful--for the right purposes. OTOH, you do have to know how to use them, which knowledge isn't something that every team has. (Though the ones that do have it tend to happily share that knowledge.)

Hi! I'm from FIRST team 3824, and we have been working with Oak Ridge National Laboratory for the past four years. Two years ago, we had the very first all-printed robot. Last year, we had a printed robot with carbon fiber. We definitely have benifitted from the use of 3D printing, and we are partnering with 3D Systems on the development of a new website for FIRST. It will have the ability to upload and download parts designed specifically for the kit of parts. This will enable us to help new teams take advantage of the technology and also share models.

Another use of these printers is fundraising. You can make and sell trinkets, keychains, cell phone covers, etc. to make money for your team. I believe this will be the most useful tool your team will ever have. You can make customized cell phone covers for a few dollars and sell them for $20 to $30! Last year we helped make Frisbees to give out at Nationals and the Smoky Mountain Regional (SMR). I'll start uploading pictures to get teams thinking.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Seems to me that piece of information would be in the user manual… rather than troubleshooting steps for printing with PLA (http://downloads.makerbot.com/replic...Manual_Eng.pdf See page 97)

You would think right? The problem becomes when the directions do not match the message that support delivers and when the directions are inconsistent. I am merely repeating what we were told when we actually attempted to get support for the clogged extruder our printer was delivered with. I was not the only person on that call it was news to all of us as well.

We have a $500 MakerCare agreement at stake here so I intend to precisely follow the directions of the MakerBot support personnel, and only MakerBot support personnel who determine our eligibility (neither their sales or their manuals make support determinations). You have to go all the way through the support procedures they deem required before any replacements are made under MakerCare.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

You would think right? The problem becomes when the directions do not match the message that support delivers and when the directions are inconsistent. I am merely repeating what we were told when we actually attempted to get support for the clogged extruder our printer was delivered with. I was not the only person on that call it was news to all of us as well.

Well, the take away is that Makerbot needs to get their support folks in line with reality and their documentation - I've never heard of a single person having issues with PLA. It's easier to print than ABS since it warps less, doesn't need heated bed, and heats at a lower temperature. Yes, you will have to lower the temp you are printing at but that's it.

So for folks reading along - Makerbot 2x supports PLA just fine, there's some configuration changes but that's all.

[Rohawk1]

Originally Posted by seg9585

Can anyone explain how the 3D printer lottery works on FIRST Choice? I was trying to find a thread or more details and didn't see any.

The "lottery" costs 150 Choice points. I assume you have to be in the lottery to collect one of the 600-point printers?
Also, if you don't win the lottery do you get those points back to spend elsewhere?

I'm curious as to your odds of winning the lottery -- basically, what are the odds that you want a 3D printer, don't get it, and now are stuck unable to get anything else because all the good stuff has been taken?

Seems a bit strange we are going through this type of gambling in FRC

This is what we understand:

Teams can select one of three different types of printers: a 3D System Cube, a MakerBot Replicator 2, or a MakerGear kit. I believe there is going to be a total of 400 printers of which about 300 are Cubes, and the rest are MakerGears and MakerBots. The Cube is the closest to a turnkey system, and is the easiest to use. The MakerBot and the MakerGear have more options in terms of the printing capabilities, and therefore are a little bit more difficult to use, but have greater capability.

Teams will be able to select any of these three printers in FIRST Choice. I think the credits are high enough that if you get a printer, you don't get much else. Also, FIRST is providing the ability to use service bureaus for printing. You can use your credits to have these bureaus print parts out for you.

[seg9585]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

Unless you intend to print ABS. The Replicator 2 is only designed and supported to print PLA. The Replicator 2X is only designed and supported to print ABS (even though it can print PLA you might have issues with MakerBot if you do that). The Makergear M2 can print both and it has a heated bed which you really want for ABS. You can always put it inside a cheap clear or translucent inverted storage box to trap the heat and increase the ambient temperature around the printer.

Also the MakerGear uses linear rails with ball bearing blocks as apposed to the bronze bushings used on the Replicators. Either work but the performance of the linear rails is better and achieve lower inertia (also generally decreased need for grease related maintenance). Up! printers also use linear rails and many of the Prusa reprap designs can be upgraded to linear round rod ball bearings.

The MakerBot Replicator 2 does have dual extruders. However I know that MakerGear M2 owners are considering solutions to that issue. I have yet to see the end result implemented.

I knew what I posted was going to spark controversy.
For the record, I own a Makerbot Replicator 2 (not the 2X, which is the dual extruder). The only difference between printing ABS and PLA is having a heated build platform, because ABS tends to warp when cooling. There are ways to get around this, especially with customized rafting.

With my Rep 2 I can and do print in PLA, ABS, Nylon, LAYWOOD, and basically anything 1.75mm I can get my hands on. It all works fine on mine regardless of what the printer was designed for (although sometimes special software configs are required).

Having said that, the Makergear requires full assembly and therefore a LOT more calibration. This all adds up to time, which is a precious resource FIRST teams dont have during the build season.

The problem with Cube is in its custom cartridges -- it ONLY accepts Cubify-sold disposable cartridges and the filamenet is triple or even quadruple the cost of filament you can find in spools online. Otherwise, the Cubify is an decent machine if its build plate weren't so small and its print speed werent so slow.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by seg9585

The problem with Cube is in its custom cartridges -- it ONLY accepts Cubify-sold disposable cartridges and the filamenet is triple or even quadruple the cost of filament you can find in spools online. Otherwise, the Cubify is an decent machine if its build plate weren't so small and its print speed werent so slow.

Psst....I doubt Cube will like this but:
http://makergeeks.com/cu3dprfiad.html
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:76083

Also you can make a dual extruder MakerBot Replicator 2.
MakerBot doesn't offer it but it's out there:
http://support.makerbot.com/entries/...Replicator-2X-
http://imgur.com/gw5nHWR,7n29Skd,Iv7qj2l,ypfTCR9#2

Besides you can just a get a knock off with dual extruders:
http://www.makergeeks.com/d4prbot3dprd.html

Another difference between printing PLA and ABS is the temperature of the extruder nozzle.
Note the approximate temperatures for PLA and ABS are listed at the bottom of the last link above.
Also the tolerance of ABS is different. PLA prints tend to change dimension less as they cool.

I own the following 3D printers myself: Up!, a heavily modified SoliDoodle 3 and 7 Prusa printers
The modifications on my SoliDoodle 3: extruder, rear axis drive, SDP-SI cogs (some Fairloc), GT2 belts, VXB linear bearings
I really tore the SoliDoodle software apart to try and increase the quality of things like printed circles.
I am working on putting an all aluminum dual extruder on a Prusa frame (though it might end up a slightly wider Prusa frame).

I agree that during build season a new 3D printer build might not be wise to rely on especially if it's the only printer you have. Luckily most teams will participate in FIRST over years so what might take too long for this season (seeing as it's nearly December) might work out just fine for next year.

[Rohawk1]

We have used printers in past seasons to supplement complex parts that we need for our robot. He is right, setting up a printer takes time, and it also takes time to calibrate the settings to your needs. So, using these printers this year may only be a possibility if you have the extra time.