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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-11-2013, 14:29
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
I think any attempt by FIRST to sort divisions by some sort of competitive metric will be a complete failure; FIRST simply isn't tuned into that kind of stuff.

Remember a few years ago when they tried to "balance" quals by sorting teams into three groups.
Who do you mean by "they"? I don't think you can blame FIRST for the Alliance Algorithm of Doom.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 14:37
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by Alan Anderson View Post
Who do you mean by "they"? I don't think you can blame FIRST for the Alliance Algorithm of Doom.
That is a separate failure, and I believe only affected week 1 regionals? The alliance of doom looped you against the teams immediately adjacent to you in team number if I recall correctly.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 15:24
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

This old post by Dave Lavery might be relevant to your discussion of the 2007 match algorithm. Apparently the algorithm designers essentially decided independent of FIRST what their priorities in assigning partners were. It seems like this post is referencing both the week 1 clustering of teams and the general "low / mid / high number vs low / mid / high number" algorithm. Apparently the latter was never fixed in 2007 despite FIRST's requests.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 18:22
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
That is a separate failure, and I believe only affected week 1 regionals? The alliance of doom looped you against the teams immediately adjacent to you in team number if I recall correctly.
As I recall, the Algorithm of Doom was exactly what Alan said it was. Now, some of the events MAY have had the result you described--but that was due to being smaller events.

Typical Algorithm of Doom match would be that you were against one or two really good teams for half your matches, and never with them.

FIRST did release a fix, but it took a few weeks and didn't do much for smaller events, IIRC.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 18:23
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
As I recall, the Algorithm of Doom was exactly what Alan said it was. Now, some of the events MAY have had the result you described--but that was due to being smaller events.

Typical Algorithm of Doom match would be that you were against one or two really good teams for half your matches, and never with them.

FIRST did release a fix, but it took a few weeks and didn't do much for smaller events, IIRC.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 18:44
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
Sorry, Adam, but you're not adding anything new. If you have new information that you didn't ALREADY state (and which I was responding to). The discussion I remember applied the term "Algorithm of Doom" to the 3-group qual setup system, partly because if you were in the same group as [insert powerhouse] you would never be with them, and probably be against them 3 or 4 times. It wasn't fixed. IIRC, there was some modification AFTER a few weeks that was a slight improvement, but not enough to make much difference.


You may be thinking of 2010, where there was a change to the seeding structure after Week 1 produced a number of 6v0 matches.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 19:16
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Sorry, Adam, but you're not adding anything new. If you have new information that you didn't ALREADY state (and which I was responding to). The discussion I remember applied the term "Algorithm of Doom" to the 3-group qual setup system, partly because if you were in the same group as [insert powerhouse] you would never be with them, and probably be against them 3 or 4 times. It wasn't fixed. IIRC, there was some modification AFTER a few weeks that was a slight improvement, but not enough to make much difference.


You may be thinking of 2010, where there was a change to the seeding structure after Week 1 produced a number of 6v0 matches.
Week 1 of 2007 the doom scheduler had you play with/against the team above or below you in team number every match.

Later in season, Champs for sure, teams were clearly lumped into 3 groups (in order of team number) with each qual alliance having a team from each group. Punishing low number teams that were not elite, and favoring high number teams that were elite.
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Unread 29-11-2013, 19:30
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
Week 1 of 2007 the doom scheduler had you play with/against the team above or below you in team number every match.

Later in season, Champs for sure, teams were clearly lumped into 3 groups (in order of team number) with each qual alliance having a team from each group. Punishing low number teams that were not elite, and favoring high number teams that were elite.
Didn't remember the first part. As a matter of fact, this is the first I remember hearing about it. What I remember is the 2nd part being throughout the season--and, as a note, the 1st part could be an artifact of the 2nd part, to an extent.
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Unread 30-11-2013, 13:59
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

One interesting Einstein winning alliance was the IFI alliance in 2008.

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It was all coincidence how it worked out.
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Unread 30-11-2013, 17:24
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by DampRobot View Post
Fair enough. I'll give you that OPR was quite good last year. On the other hand, there were some years (like 2012) when it was absolutely terrible. Personally, I like OPR a fair bit, but it certainly can't tell you all there is to know about a team, and often tells you significantly less than what is important (at least, important for alliance selection).

I was commenting more from the perspective that there seems to be an irrational hatred of OPR among some veteran members of the FRC community, and that those people might be against a metric like OPR controlling divisions.
I agree, opr is often not well received, and understandably so. It's not the best, or most accurate metric, but it's better than whatever they currently use and arguably the best option that can be used to measure every single team in frc since I doubt we can get real scouting data on every single team.
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Unread 30-11-2013, 17:34
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Didn't remember the first part. As a matter of fact, this is the first I remember hearing about it. What I remember is the 2nd part being throughout the season--and, as a note, the 1st part could be an artifact of the 2nd part, to an extent.
Check out 114's schedule at PNW 2007: http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/114/2007
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Unread 30-11-2013, 17:37
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
Check out 114's schedule at PNW 2007: http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/114/2007
It also only existed at week 1 events, and wasn't an issue at week 2. I remember this very well as we would either have played 254 or 330 in every single match, and that didn't happen.
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Unread 30-11-2013, 17:41
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
It also only existed at week 1 events, and wasn't an issue at week 2. I remember this very well as we would either have played 254 or 330 in every single match, and that didn't happen.
We had that issue at Trenton in 07.

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Unread 30-11-2013, 18:02
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Originally Posted by AdamHeard View Post
It also only existed at week 1 events, and wasn't an issue at week 2. I remember this very well as we would either have played 254 or 330 in every single match, and that didn't happen.
I remember that issue! At GSR, 1058 played 1073 every single qualification match with 1277 bouncing between alliances.

It was such a shame because both were fantastic machines that would have done better if they didn't have to play each other every match.
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Unread 30-11-2013, 18:09
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Re: Galileo - The Champion's Division

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Check out 114's schedule at PNW 2007: http://www.thebluealliance.com/team/114/2007
192 much?
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