Internet at Competitions

[Brandon Ha]

I am speaking from FiM's side, which is WiFi is bad. Do NOT use it at competitions. Many things can and will go wrong, not for the users but the field people. They will get angry at you.

[yash101]

Originally Posted by Brandon Ha

I am speaking from FiM's side, which is WiFi is bad. Do NOT use it at competitions. Many things can and will go wrong, not for the users but the field people. They will get angry at you.

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)? Also, you say, don't use WiFi in the competitions, but you don't really explain why. Also, yes, they will get angry at you, but it isn't a bad thing, like how you are making it sound. That is to just keep the fields working properly. WiFi is a thing that is quite useful in competitions because it will network devices together, allowing them to communicate. That is the reason why you use Bluetooth in competitions!
Bluetooth should be good as long as you aren't torenting a 16GB file (you'll get angry by the 3MBps max speed)!

[Abhishek R]

Originally Posted by yash101

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)?

FiM = FIRST in Michigan. Though I'm not sure which one he meant, now that you bring it up, but I'm fairly certain he meant FiM being from a Michigan team.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yash101

First of all, do you mean FMS (Field Management System)? Also, you say, don't use WiFi in the competitions, but you don't really explain why. Also, yes, they will get angry at you, but it isn't a bad thing, like how you are making it sound. That is to just keep the fields working properly. WiFi is a thing that is quite useful in competitions because it will network devices together, allowing them to communicate.

Interference. That's why no WiFi. Field working properly is HUGE! You weren't around in 2012, I don't think--get your hands on a copy of the Einstein Report from that year, and see just what can go wrong if either the field or the robots aren't working properly.



FYI, all: From the 2014 Administrative Manual, Section 4.15, 3rd bullet:

Do not arrange for Internet access or phone lines on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.

I'm guessing this replaces the WiFi restriction from 2013 and prior years.

[Ankit S.]

Originally Posted by EricH

FYI, all: From the 2014 Administrative Manual, Section 4.15, 3rd bullet:

Do not arrange for Internet access or phone lines on the site or attempt to connect to the Internet.

I'm guessing this replaces the WiFi restriction from 2013 and prior years.

So if I am understanding this correctly, we cant use the Internet at all during competition anymore? Even over 3G/4G?

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by Ankit S.

So if I am understanding this correctly, we cant use the Internet at all during competition anymore? Even over 3G/4G?

Not commenting on the legality of setting up a 3/4G modem, but that rule does seem overly silly, since any phone with a dataplan breaks "or attempt to connect to the Internet." just by being on the network.

[JosephC]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

Not commenting on the legality of setting up a 3/4G modem, but that rule does seem overly silly, since any phone with a dataplan breaks "or attempt to connect to the Internet." just by being on the network.

I believe FIRST means WiFi or anything that could interfere with the field traffic. I agree it could be worded a little better. Or maybe they actually meant 3G and 4G as well, but I doubt it.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by Ankit S.

So if I am understanding this correctly, we cant use the Internet at all during competition anymore? Even over 3G/4G?

Speaking for only myself here:

I do not believe that FIRST extends that rule to 3G/4G.
If they intend it that way, then I should hope it is limited as a rule applying to the team.

In other words: if 3G/4G data service is not allowed it is within respect to team efforts (like scouting applications).

I say this because: I have global planetary responsibilities (in short this is no joke and it could impact everyone, everywhere). Frankly if there is service I need to be available. I can cooperate only so far with this. I can check in occasionally. I can and do take the day off while at a competition. However I can not allow FIRST to create a situation that could lead to a level of harm they can't possibly have liability insurance adequate for.

3G/4G to a phone client does not present a risk to the field. Turning on a WiFi hot spot on your phone might.

Frankly I think any interpretation of that rule to prevent 3G/4G client access for people that are in situations such as myself will literally cripple FIRST (consider the corporate sponsorship: the number of FIRST mentors, volunteers, organizers and parents that are in situations like myself). The only way that makes sense with regard to 3G/4G is to cut down on teams with team efforts to use the Internet. In short teams should not write Internet applications but individuals data usage on 3G/4G as clients only on that network is okay.

Besides this would be entirely unenforceable. The number of smartphones by nonaligned spectators directly next to the field with active network synchronization on 3G/4G would be large. FIRST would have to tell every spectator to turn off their phones and even then there would be people that would not comply. Start weeding them out and quickly it will hurt FIRST's reputation.

At the point that FIRST as an organization goes >that far< stop playing around with WiFi for critical field functions because it is manufacturing many problems where there need not be any. Going >that far< actually has a tangible cost in reputation and likely support. So whatever it ends up costing FIRST if they had to make that leap balance that against the potentially much higher risk of financial impact.

Do not interpret this is a threat. Interpret it as what it is. I am an engineer this is my observation of the risk.

[Chadfrom308]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

Speaking for only myself here:

I do not believe that FIRST extends that rule to 3G/4G.
If they intend it that way, then I should hope it is limited as a rule applying to the team.

In other words: if 3G/4G data service is not allowed it is within respect to team efforts (like scouting applications).

I say this because: I have global planetary responsibilities (in short this is no joke and it could impact everyone, everywhere). Frankly if there is service I need to be available. I can cooperate only so far with this. I can check in occasionally. I can and do take the day off while at a competition. However I can not allow FIRST to create a situation that could lead to a level of harm they can't possibly have liability insurance adequate for.

3G/4G to a phone client does not present a risk to the field. Turning on a WiFi hot spot on your phone might.

Frankly I think any interpretation of that rule to prevent 3G/4G client access for people that are in situations such as myself will literally cripple FIRST (consider the corporate sponsorship: the number of FIRST mentors, volunteers, organizers and parents that are in situations like myself). The only way that makes sense with regard to 3G/4G is to cut down on teams with team efforts to use the Internet. In short teams should not write Internet applications but individuals data usage on 3G/4G as clients only on that network is okay.

Besides this would be entirely unenforceable. The number of smartphones by nonaligned spectators directly next to the field with active network synchronization on 3G/4G would be large. FIRST would have to tell every spectator to turn off their phones and even then there would be people that would not comply. Start weeding them out and quickly it will hurt FIRST's reputation.

At the point that FIRST as an organization goes >that far< stop playing around with WiFi for critical field functions because it is manufacturing many problems where there need not be any. Going >that far< actually has a tangible cost in reputation and likely support.

I think that it is way too much of a hassle. Just modify your scouting sheet to work offline! I mean, if your can figure out how to do it online, then you can figure out how to make it offline

Instead of sending things through the internet, write the info down on paper and give them to someone who can put it in a computer! It's not too hard to do that!

I had my scouting setup like this (although we never really used it because we didn't do too well this year):
1.Everyone goes on their phone and submits a google form with all the parameters.
2.Google Spreadsheets automatically gets the data
3.Google Spreadsheets sorts the data and averages everything and makes graphs
4.The scouter (or the drivers) pulls up the interface (a sheet with a spot to type in the team you want) and gives us the info on the other teams

Now I could make it where people just write down the info on paper and have one person compile it into a sheet in excel or the new google offline spreadsheets and it will do the same thing

Besides, what's the point of robotics if you are going to be on the internet all day? It is actually fun to watch! (unless it's your team, then it's nerve wrecking)

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

I think that it is way too much of a hassle. Just modify your scouting sheet to work offline! I mean, if your can figure out how to do it online, then you can figure out how to make it offline

Instead of sending things through the internet, write the info down on paper and give them to someone who can put it in a computer! It's not too hard to do that!

I had my scouting setup like this (although we never really used it because we didn't do too well this year):
1.Everyone goes on their phone and submits a google form with all the parameters.
2.Google Spreadsheets automatically gets the data
3.Google Spreadsheets sorts the data and averages everything and makes graphs
4.The scouter (or the drivers) pulls up the interface (a sheet with a spot to type in the team you want) and gives us the info on the other teams

Now I could make it where people just write down the info on paper and have one person compile it into a sheet in excel or the new google offline spreadsheets and it will do the same thing

Besides, what's the point of robotics if you are going to be on the internet all day? It is actually fun to watch! (unless it's your team, then it's nerve wrecking)

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending who you ask), we've gotten to the point in FRC that offline scouting isn't going to cut it. It comes down to teams using scouting for more than a pick list for the finals because teams now have the ability to use scouting information for upcoming matches. My team has been pushing this for a couple years now, and we've been very successful in using scouting data to win matches in which our alliance was the real underdog. Just scouting for a pick list is severely underutilizing the data.

[Chadfrom308]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending who you ask), we've gotten to the point in FRC that offline scouting isn't going to cut it. It comes down to teams using scouting for more than a pick list for the finals because teams now have the ability to use scouting information for upcoming matches. My team has been pushing this for a couple years now, and we've been very successful in using scouting data to win matches in which our alliance was the real underdog. Just scouting for a pick list is severely underutilizing the data.

What does the online scouting provide that offline cant? I mean, unless you are putting the data for everyone to see on your website, I can't think of one

[yash101]

In this case, I did want to put data on a site, available to everyone. Having just limited internet access can help teams with less members, teams that need scouting help, etc. Using an online service allows you to use a powerful service. If I ever get my scouting app done, at the end of the match, the team can push a button for the server to process the data, build graphs and do a side-by-side comparison between different teams, and sort through teams. The software would allow you to sort through teams so that, if you are in a big competition with many high-scoring robots, the software will help you get what you need in a few minutes, a much shorter time than paper-and-pencil is! That is one advantage of internet-based CrowdScouting (as team 1306 is working on). Also, this will allow one to write a program to automatically fetch the scouting data to a tablet in the pits, meaning that a student won't have to walk all the way to the stands to get data!
Even something like google drive's spreadsheets can do the same thing (though since I am not a spreadsheet hero, I think it would be hard to make a nifty interface)

[MichelB]

I'll admit I didn't have time to read every single reply so this was probably said before but...setting up a WiFi network can and will interfere with field-robot communitcations, but I also see the use of having access to wireless communications (notice I say "wireless communications" NOT "WiFi") in the pit/stands. Bluetooth is a perfectly good option, also, a small server/file sharing system, with a router running at a distinctly different frequently from ALL field communications could work, but Bluetooth seems to be the better option by far as to not creating interference. I am not aware of any FRC rules pertaining to Bluetooth use but I have not read the entire rule book.

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

What does the online scouting provide that offline cant? I mean, unless you are putting the data for everyone to see on your website, I can't think of one

Yup, we do do that. We keep a tablet in our pits so our drive team can use real data to figure out how to play their next match. For example, this year, we could see where opponents were best at shooting from as well as where they're not good at shooting from (and same with or alliance partners). We know where to put defense and know where everyone should shoot from to maximize our shooting percentage.

Originally Posted by DELurker

Anything that operates in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz range has historically been forbidden due to the interference possibility with the 2.4GHz and 5GHz field communications. This includes WiFi networking (IEEE 802.11), Bluetooth (IEEE 802.15.1), ZigBee and associated protocols (IEEE 802.15.4), and any other thing (including 2.4GHz wireless telephones) that operates within the 2.4GHz and 5GHz spectrum.

Please show me this rule, because the rules I've read have specifically forbidden anything operating in IEEE 802.11 and no rules against 802.15.

[DELurker]

Originally Posted by Michael Hill

Please show me this rule, because the rules I've read have specifically forbidden anything operating in IEEE 802.11 and no rules against 802.15.

From the 2013 competition manual...

5.5.1.4 T04
Teams are not allowed to set up their own 802.11a/b/g/n/ac (2.4GHz or 5GHz) wireless communication (e.g. access points or ad-hoc networks) in the venue.
A wireless hot spot created by a cellular device would be considered an access point.

Since they specifically mention 2.4GHz, I would assume that anything which looked like a 802.11 network in the 2.4GHz ISM range would be treated as one. This assumption would include both 802.15.1 and 802.15.4. Given what happened to the Einstein guy (discussed elsewhere in this thread) in 2012, I would not want to even hint at arguing with the FTA over the difference between 802.11 and 802.15.4 networks, especially since they occupy the same frequency space and can (and do) interfere with each other.