pic: FRC228 Tormach CNC Mill

[Cory]

Originally Posted by peronis

I don't necessarily need a new machine, however I believe it will be easier for the school to approve and buy one from a company. In addition, a new machine would include support and additional resources if problems arise.

Do you have any experience with either machine?

I've used the Tormach. If I had $17,000 to spend I'd find a used machine over buying one, but I understand the difficulty of the proposition of used machinery for a school purchase.

It's an OK machine, considering what it is. It's not going to be the most rigid, precise/accurate, or fastest machine ever, because it's too small, light, and cheap to be all those things, but you should easily be able to produce reasonably good parts to within .005". I do know that Team 368 had some fairly large quality issues with their machine a few years ago, but I think Tormach resolved the issues for them.

[Bald & Bearded]

So first I am jealous. That looks like a cool machine.

I also like the Vetric software - I use it with my Shopbot Handibot - It is simple and lets you quickly lay out most tool paths.

For the person looking to buy a machine, I saw the Buddy when I was down at Shopbots factory for training in Oct. It also looks like a great machine.
While I can't speak for the Buddy I do have a Handibot (Shopbots portable CNC machine) and the quality of their machines is top notch. I also really like that they are small, personable and so far have had great customer support. They let local FIRST teams come in and use there really big production machines.

[magnets]

I have been with 2 teams in the past few years, and the tormach experience has been... interesting. The first team had nothing but success with their machine, with the machine being run hour after hour cutting gearbox plates, wheels, sprockets, pulleys, and everything else with little to no problems. The team I'm with now, isn't too excited about the tormach. We assembled a do it yourself cnc router, and we really love the thing. We use it for prototyping all the time, and it's easy enough to use that a freshman was able to make a shooter wheel to launch frisbees by herself. Then, to cut thick aluminum and steel, we got a tormach. To begin with, the new one seemed a little more flimsy than the old one. (they were both PCNC 1100) While none of the axes or tables were flimsy, the back of the machine and all the little guards and panels were all wobbly. After setting up and cutting the first part (block with many holes), we noticed that the part was only accurate to about 1/2", so something was slipping. I wasn't involved much over the summer with this team, but the end result was paying $3000 to have a technician come out, replace the table, the motor, and the ballscrew, because the motor would make noise, but the output shaft wouldn't spin. Because the motor is modified by tormach with a different shaft output, if the problem fails in the modified part, you can't fix it yourself. However, the other two axis the motor worked fine, but the shaft coupling slipped on a both.

I've never used a shopbot very much, but i've heard great things about them. Also, consider used equipment if possible.

[peronis]

Originally Posted by magnets

I have been with 2 teams in the past few years, and the tormach experience has been... interesting. The first team had nothing but success with their machine, with the machine being run hour after hour cutting gearbox plates, wheels, sprockets, pulleys, and everything else with little to no problems. The team I'm with now, isn't too excited about the tormach. We assembled a do it yourself cnc router, and we really love the thing. We use it for prototyping all the time, and it's easy enough to use that a freshman was able to make a shooter wheel to launch frisbees by herself. Then, to cut thick aluminum and steel, we got a tormach. To begin with, the new one seemed a little more flimsy than the old one. (they were both PCNC 1100) While none of the axes or tables were flimsy, the back of the machine and all the little guards and panels were all wobbly. After setting up and cutting the first part (block with many holes), we noticed that the part was only accurate to about 1/2", so something was slipping. I wasn't involved much over the summer with this team, but the end result was paying $3000 to have a technician come out, replace the table, the motor, and the ballscrew, because the motor would make noise, but the output shaft wouldn't spin. Because the motor is modified by tormach with a different shaft output, if the problem fails in the modified part, you can't fix it yourself. However, the other two axis the motor worked fine, but the shaft coupling slipped on a both.

I've never used a shopbot very much, but i've heard great things about them. Also, consider used equipment if possible.

Thank you all so much for the feedback.

I noticed how you mentioned that you made sprockets, wheels, etc. with the tormach

I guess the question would be, can the shopbot do the same precision work, or has anyone made precision parts such as sprockets and gearbox parts on it?

[sanddrag]

You can get a used Fadal for about $17k, but, you don't want to buy a $17k can of worms. You'd really have to have someone who knows machinery check it out. Also, as a note, I have no personal experience with Fadal, but I'd like to think it's a heck of a lot more machine than a Tormach. That said, I'd read of tons of people who absolutely love their Tormach and make some impressive pieces on them, and I'm considering a Tormach lathe if they ever finish it and release it for sale.

I know it may be out of your budget, but originally, I was looking at a Tormach, and ended up going with a HAAS, and I cannot even begin to describe how big of a difference it is, and how glad I am that we upped the budget for a HAAS. See if you can sell the school district on safety. The HAAS is enclosed and has safety interlocks and is "industry standard equipment."

[DampRobot]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I know it may be out of your budget, but originally, I was looking at a Tormach, and ended up going with a HAAS, and I cannot even begin to describe how big of a difference it is, and how glad I am that we upped the budget for a HAAS. See if you can sell the school district on safety. The HAAS is enclosed and has safety interlocks and is "industry standard equipment."

I've used both, and can say with no hesitations that the HAAS is a beautiful machine and a joy to work with. It's very rigid, safe, strong, fast, well made, great control software, etc, etc, etc. With flood coolant, ATC, and a rienshaw, I'd call it my dream mill.

Whenever I've used it, I did find the Tormach more than adequate for most FRC uses. It's a good price, and cuts well. On the other hand, you can really see that it was made more for the garage machine shop (where build quality isn't quite as important) than for the industrial R&D and production runs the HAASes are made for.

Either way, make sure to get flood coolant. The only reason why I might want to use the Tormach over my team's HAAS is the flood coolant (our teacher had it uninstalled from the HAAS). It really improves cutting, and let's you crank through aluminum and even steel at very nice speeds. It can be very important if you want to go into "production mode" with a run of parts.

[Alan Ing]

Originally Posted by Cory

It's an OK machine, considering what it is. It's not going to be the most rigid, precise/accurate, or fastest machine ever, because it's too small, light, and cheap to be all those things, but you should easily be able to produce reasonably good parts to within .005". I do know that Team 368 had some fairly large quality issues with their machine a few years ago, but I think Tormach resolved the issues for them.

Hi All, I'm an engineering mentor with Team 368 (We sat out last year but are back for 2014!). I thought I'd just make some comments regarding the Tormach.

I’m pretty much in agreement with what Cory said about the Tormach. It is not in the same class as a production machine and does not have the mass, rigidity, or power to be compared with machines from Haas, Hurco, Sharp and the numerous other industrial machines. It is however, a great little machine that may fill the needs of many FRC teams who are just getting started in cnc milling.

We bought our Tormach back in 2006 without any real knowledge about how to use it and have been relying on it more and more as the years go by. Accuracy is pretty good, we are usually within .001” and with some care you can get press fits for bearings. I would call the Tormach a proconsumer machine. It’s neither a cheap hobbyist mill nor an industrial machine. It has travels of 18” x 9.5” x 16.25” (xyz) which is not very large but large enough to do many parts that an FRC robot might need. One of the typical things we do is make 25 and 35 pitch sprockets with it. Although the travels are limited, with some creativeness, you can make larger parts by indexing. We cut a 240 tooth 25 pitch sprocket to make a turret that a lunacy ball could pass through back in 2009. There are many accessories including a power draw bar (more like a pneumatic collet closer) and a toolchanger which make it a mini milling center. It is not perfect, but has enabled us to make some pretty cool stuff.

Some things to consider, we have had excellent support from Tormach. As Cory mentioned, we had a quality issue with our mill, but after some discussions and troubleshooting, Tormach made everything right for us and we are happy with its resolution. I believe our problem was just dumb luck and would not hesitate to purchase another mill from them. If you need to know the specifics, you can pm me.

A used industrial cnc machine is a great way to go and you can get some good deals on machines. The only problem is that you should have someone who really know what they are doing prior to pulling the trigger. It is not as simple as plugging in a hobbyist rapid prototyping machine and you may need someone who can troubleshoot, operate, and maintain the machine.

When you buy a used machine, often you are on your own. The Tormach is well documented, has a lot of support and you can get started fairly easy.

Our team is now at the point where we could really take advantage of a larger more powerful machine, but we are constrained by money and space.

Oh, by the way, we use MasterCam, they have a great educational discount, but Tormach also sells affordable cam products too.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Alan Ing

One of the typical things we do is make 25 and 35 pitch sprockets with it.

Hi Alan,
I'm sure you've told me before, but where are you getting your sprocket tooth profiles from? The models we used last season did not fit the chain accurately.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Hi Alan,
I'm sure you've told me before, but where are you getting your sprocket tooth profiles from? The models we used last season did not fit the chain accurately.

We use the mastercam sprocket generator. And then compensate tooth profile using wear comp, its normally not much. We've also haven't had an issue with the solidworks generator.

-RC

[peronis]

From what i'm hearing the shopbot might not be robust enough to precision machine aluminum.

It seems to be more geared for wood, but the company says it can handle aluminum fine. It would provide more flexibility as it will go in our schools woodshop where the other teachers could utilize it. I might commit to the shopbot buddy alpha if it can handle cutting and machining aluminum for our own custom parts. It would have a duel use, and the school likes to reach as many students as possible. I have seen a couple of videos of it cutting aluminum, but nothing as robust as I've seen with the tormach, which is why I am a little hesitant.

I would love to get a HAAS, but my school won't commit those resources, nor get a used one.

In all my primary goal though is to get students to see the product development cycle, and learn about the CNC process. Also, have students make some awesome parts.

[Akash Rastogi]

/can't delete. Misread previous post.

[Alan Ing]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Hi Alan,
I'm sure you've told me before, but where are you getting your sprocket tooth profiles from? The models we used last season did not fit the chain accurately.

Hi Dave, as RC mentioned, we also generate our sprocket details in MasterCam. MasterCam has a bunch of user applications (.dll) called chooks that you can use to make sprockets, gears, and other things that I don't know much about. The sprocket profile generated is ANSI standard but is only a 2D profile. Because we have to use a 1/8" endmill to cut 25 tooth spockets, we either have to make several 0.000 clearance passes or one really slow clearance pass. The endmill flexes too much and it makes a difference in fitting the chain.

RC, really? There is a sprocket generator for Solidworks? My biggest complaint is that I have never found one. Where is it located, or is there some sort of add in? We would love to be able to generate sprockets in Solidworks. I know that Inventor has something.

Alan