Internet at Competitions

[DELurker]

I'm sure this will only help the topic wander further afield, but ...

Anything that operates in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz range has historically been forbidden due to the interference possibility with the 2.4GHz and 5GHz field communications. This includes WiFi networking (IEEE 802.11), Bluetooth (IEEE 802.15.1), ZigBee and associated protocols (IEEE 802.15.4), and any other thing (including 2.4GHz wireless telephones) that operates within the 2.4GHz and 5GHz spectrum. The FCC has only allocated so much space in the ISM bands for available use, and WiFi takes up almost the entire width. Yes, there are several channels available, but they all can overlap and interfere with the other 2.4GHz protocols.

The upshot is that, if any 2.4GHz communications that aren't the field communications are permitted, then it will just be a matter of seconds before someone, whether on purpose or not, will start consuming frequency spectrum capacity meant for the field communication bandwidth. Easiest solution: Ban all 2.4GHz communications.

3G/4G operate outside the ISM bands in the 2.4GHz (barely) and 5GHz frequencies, and, therefore, are not contributors to interference. Thus, it makes no sense to restrict them (plus it would be completely irrational and impossible).

With the advent of flash drives and SD cards, try making your app be able to communicate via them instead of wirelessly.

As for operating outside of the ISM bands, do not do it without an FCC license. You have no idea what you could possibly be interfering with and it's an all-around bad idea.

[yash101]

Well, that is a possibility, though bluetooth is low-power and meant for short-distance communications. However, I'm pretty sure that you will be able to communicate with devices on the other side of the field!

I was thinking, if I can get this scouting application made, should I contact the event coordinator about if they would let me set up a low-power hotspot on the other side of the building from the stands, to allow teams to see the stats, but have no internet connection? I think that a 4mW Tx won't reach the stands if it is on the other side of the building!

That way, I can have teams ask for a password (I won't have it as a public AP), to get free inet? I think that could be an idea (as long as I can age FRC approval! Also, is WiFi allowed in the pits, to communicate with the robot?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by yash101

Well, that is a possibility, though bluetooth is low-power and meant for short-distance communications. However, I'm pretty sure that you will be able to communicate with devices on the other side of the field!

I was thinking, if I can get this scouting application made, should I contact the event coordinator about if they would let me set up a low-power hotspot on the other side of the building from the stands, to allow teams to see the stats, but have no internet connection? I think that a 4mW Tx won't reach the stands if it is on the other side of the building!

That way, I can have teams ask for a password (I won't have it as a public AP), to get free inet? I think that could be an idea (as long as I can age FRC approval! Also, is WiFi allowed in the pits, to communicate with the robot?

They won't give you that approval. From what it seems like, this year they're simplifying the rule about no WiFi by saying no internet. The only WiFi that is allowed is the WiFi on the field. Robots in the pits have to be tethered(which has been a rule for a number of yours). No wireless anything at all is allowed; the way I see it is, treat the FIRST event like you're going to a sporting event; keep the internet to 4G/3G/Mobile networks on your phone.

Some past instances (aside from Einstein 2012) was one year at the Finger Lakes Regional, RIT's network was messing with the field, so they had to shut that down (I'm not sure the exact specifics; someone who was there can probably clarify). Also, I read reports that at Championship last year, FIRST had people with WiFi scanners to "track down" anyone who had a hotspot enabled. Plus the numerous times at competitions where the announcer says something like, "Whoever is running the WiFi network 'BlahBlahBlah' please shut it down".

[techhelpbb]

I think I should remind people that near field communications exists.
http://www.techradar.com/us/news/pho...r-phone-948410
It's around 13.5MHz and no license is required.
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com...unication4.htm

Also you could craft a way to communicate using QR codes.
Put it on the display and scan it with the smart phone: zero wireless.
You can encode - a lot - of data just like that.
Picture a computer monitor used for all QR code dots

In both cases the Internet is not involved.

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by DevenStonow

They won't give you that approval. From what it seems like, this year they're simplifying the rule about no WiFi by saying no internet. The only WiFi that is allowed is the WiFi on the field. Robots in the pits have to be tethered(which has been a rule for a number of yours). No wireless anything at all is allowed; the way I see it is, treat the FIRST event like you're going to a sporting event; keep the internet to 4G/3G/Mobile networks on your phone.

I don't see the rules stating that, they simply refer to internet. So if your local bluetooth/othernonwifi network doesn't have a device to act as a mobile modem it should be legal by the current rules.

[MichelB]

Originally Posted by Nirvash

I don't see the rules stating that, they simply refer to internet. So if your local bluetooth/othernonwifi network doesn't have a device to act as a mobile modem it should be legal by the current rules.

You are right there, as far as I am aware, bluetooth and other non-wifi, is allowed. Not sure about 3G/4G/Mobile networks though.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

FIRST is deadly serious about the Wifi issue. They had Wifi sniffers at the champs tracking down people who were setting up Wifi hotspots. And every event I went to they tell teams repeatedly to turn off any wifi they set up. After the fiasco of 2012 they are not in the mood to have that happen again and trust me you do not want to have happen to you what happened to the dude who was causing mischief that day.

What did happen to the guy/what was really happening? The Einstein report was rather vague with that part (perhaps for good reason, but I'm still wondering).

[yash101]

Whenever I use a hotspot (I rarely use one), I have the antenna set to <1mW, so you walk a few feet away and you lose connection, so that would be unlikely to cause any interference (except for the people around me)! However, let's just ditch wifi and use something like BT. As far as I know, I haven't heard of any restrictions on 3G/4G, especially because they operate on completely different frequency bands! Just as a teaser, has a single team ever used ZigBee to communicate internet connection? That would be a cool project.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by TheCascadeKid

What did happen to the guy/what was really happening? The Einstein report was rather vague with that part (perhaps for good reason, but I'm still wondering).

The black painted Segway X2 circled and got him.
Like little wheeled black SUV and helicopters.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by TheCascadeKid

What did happen to the guy/what was really happening? The Einstein report was rather vague with that part (perhaps for good reason, but I'm still wondering).

Lifetime ban from FIRST events. IIRC that was said in the letter from the team of the mentor (or was it anonymously signed by the mentor himself?)

[rsegrest]

Originally Posted by TheCascadeKid

What did happen to the guy/what was really happening? The Einstein report was rather vague with that part (perhaps for good reason, but I'm still wondering).

If you read the email that accompanied the Einstien report vague was the last thing it was. Here is the gist of what happened and the results:

What happened:
Random guy found a way to use Wifi to cause interference in robot communication that affected the outcome of Einstien matches

Consequences:
Random guy is in no way allowed any further contact with, interaction with, or participation in FIRST in any capacity. Essentially he is banned from FIRST for life.

Excerpt from the letter from Jon Dudas sent to all teams...

"Additionally, Einstein match play suffered from an intentional act of interference. The person who engaged in this interference was associated with an FRC team, but not with any team on the winning alliance. For personal reasons, this individual opted to resign. In addition, FIRST has prohibited the individual from participating in any future FIRST event as a coach, mentor, volunteer or in any other capacity. This is the penalty associated with an intentional act of interference."

http://www.usfirst.org/node/2426

And this is one of the reasons why Wifi is not allowed at events in any capacity.

To the OP:
I agree with the other posters on most of their points. The volunteers at all events are just that, volunteers. They catch a lot of grief over match play, things not working exactly the way they worked for teams at home, the occasional FRC participant who doesn't want to follow the rules, setup, breakdown, etc. etc.

While the majority of the time their experiences are positive I can tell you that there are individuals who are actively rude and ugly to the volunteers (adults and students alike). I speak from experience because my students have participated as volunteers and I have witnessed some unfortunate incidents.

If you want to do this use your 3/4G devices all day long (we use laptops and USB drives for simplicity) but please do not expect/ask the volunteers for another thing to setup, configure, troubleshoot for every team that is having problems, and then breakdown. Their jobs and time are already busy enough with all the other duties they are asked to perform. If you think you are tired at the end of an event put yourself in their shoes, they are the first in the doors in the morning, the last out the doors at night, and spend several days before teams arrive getting everything ready for us and then cleaning up after we leave.

Thank you to all those who have volunteered at an event, you guys do a great job!

[Michael Hill]

Originally Posted by Chadfrom308

What does the online scouting provide that offline cant? I mean, unless you are putting the data for everyone to see on your website, I can't think of one

Yup, we do do that. We keep a tablet in our pits so our drive team can use real data to figure out how to play their next match. For example, this year, we could see where opponents were best at shooting from as well as where they're not good at shooting from (and same with or alliance partners). We know where to put defense and know where everyone should shoot from to maximize our shooting percentage.

Originally Posted by DELurker

Anything that operates in the 2.4GHz or 5GHz range has historically been forbidden due to the interference possibility with the 2.4GHz and 5GHz field communications. This includes WiFi networking (IEEE 802.11), Bluetooth (IEEE 802.15.1), ZigBee and associated protocols (IEEE 802.15.4), and any other thing (including 2.4GHz wireless telephones) that operates within the 2.4GHz and 5GHz spectrum.

Please show me this rule, because the rules I've read have specifically forbidden anything operating in IEEE 802.11 and no rules against 802.15.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by rsegrest

If you want to do this use your 3/4G devices all day long (we use laptops and USB drives for simplicity) but please do not expect/ask the volunteers for another thing to setup, configure, troubleshoot for every team that is having problems, and then breakdown. Their jobs and time are already busy enough with all the other duties they are asked to perform. If you think you are tired at the end of an event put yourself in their shoes, they are the first in the doors in the morning, the last out the doors at night, and spend several days before teams arrive getting everything ready for us and then cleaning up after we leave.

Thank you to all those who have volunteered at an event, you guys do a great job!

As a guy that's helped set up the fields and the pits I appreciate that.
However I'd like to say that - planned - installation of say a wired network would just be another task and if enabled to do it I would do it.

On the other hand - unplanned - having to chase teams with WiFi that know better around I do not welcome. It invites a confrontation that is just not necessary and being unplanned it is unwelcome.

In point of fact I believe the vast majority of 'confrontations' I've seen are from small but important things that can be addressed and removed with adequate communications. Sure someone might be better or worse off for resolution but no one is better for letting that fester.

Originally Posted by rsegrest

What happened:
Random guy found a way to use Wifi to cause interference in robot communication that affected the outcome of Einstien matches

Not quite what happened.
He found a hole and after they refused to address it he exploited it again.

Finding the problem: not the problem.
Bringing the problem to someone's attention (could have been done in a more polite and responsible manner): sort of a problem.

Opening the door to becoming an interloper on the field < entirely unacceptable.

Once he knew it was a problem and was asked to stop it was time to comply.
So the message here: if they ask you to stop - you stop.

Watch carefully - when Al says don't use hot glue on electronic motor controls I do not.
It does not matter if I agree - do not turn a simple disagreement into a war that has far reaching consequences.
On the other side of that: if someone tells FIRST respectfully there's a problem - they need to listen (usually they do).
FIRST did investigate the problem at great expense so obviously they are listening to this now.

(Keep in mind the goal is to evolve - mistakes happen - let's try to keep the disasters to a minimum.)

[JosephC]

The answer all the questions about getting match data to the drivers in the pits from the stands: The past 2 years at Worlds, where the walk in quite a distance, 68 solved the problem by printing the sheet out in the stands and then taking a picture and emailing it to the drive coach. It's fast, efficient, and doesn't interfere with the fields WiFi. We do our scouting the old pen and paper way, focusing on making our sheets easier to use during the match and easier to enter in the computer rather then wireless communications between the scouters and the computers.

Originally Posted by rsegrest

Thank you to all those who have volunteered at an event, you guys do a great job!

Thank you =] And I pass that message along to all the other FIRST volunteers, keep up the good work!

[BBray_T1296]

What would be the fate of a system using NFC (Near Field Communication) also known as Android Beam (Samsung Beam is even cooler, but other devices are available) available on all newer Android devices running Jellybean (and possibly further back than that). File transfer is orders of magnitude faster than bluetooth but works in nearly the same way. As the name implies it requires proximity to function, but I have been 30+' away from somebody and it still worked.