Internet at Competitions

[sanddrag]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using a 900Mhz point to point ethernet bridge to get scouting data from the stands to the pits. However, they are about $1000, so it's much cheaper to have two 4G devices.

I agree with others that FIRST is not in the business of being an ISP, especially to a bunch of kids. LOTS of issues there with web safety and liability, and no volunteer base to set this up and manage it at each event.

[yash101]

Are you talking about something like this?

That is some nice technology. "15 Miles of Range," "1.5Mbps data rate"

Just perfect for what we need, though the range is kind of overkill. Then, you could possibly use your hotel's wifi? <<==Not that good of an idea, but possible!

Yeah. That makes sense. I don't think FIRST will want to spend much effort in internet. It isn't one of their priorities. They have better things to be doing!

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

I agree with others that FIRST is not in the business of being an ISP, especially to a bunch of kids. LOTS of issues there with web safety and liability, and no volunteer base to set this up and manage it at each event.

One can reduce the size and risk by reducing it to one table and rigging it so transactions are to a storage service. Then students with legit applications can upload and download from that point and retrieve from there externally. Like a bulkhead or prison .

[thefro526]

I'll preface this by saying that I haven't read through this thread with the appropriate attention to detail, so please forgive me if this has been repeated but, I've also been looking into and talking to people about how to have a reliable internet connection at competitions primarily for the purpose of scouting - and if possible, the uploading of pictures/videos/updates to the web for those following at home and these are the routes that seem most feasible:

- Tethering through a 3G/4G/Cellular Data Device. Personally, I have a 3G/4G Laptop that's more or less attached to my hip during competition season. I bought it with the intent to use it for tethering throughout the build and competition season right before kick-off last year, and it hasn't let me down yet. I've got a 5GB data plan that I've only exceeded once (2013 Championship) and that was due in large part to streaming video for an hour or two. I've also used it to stream webcasts of an event while on the go, and it worked surprisingly well. If we were to integrate something like this into our scouting system as the access point/link device, odds are it'd be tethered via USB to one machine, and then all other machines networked via ethernet cables. I need to test this method a bit to see how well it actually works (and if I'll need a bridge, or if a bridge makes sense) but if you only need a computer or two on the net, it should be fine.

- Purchasing an array of Cell-Data enabled computers and/or USB modems. Neither of these methods is all that 'cheap', but depending on the amount you were planning on investing in devices, it might not be too bad. Something like a $300-$400 Chromebook would work perfectly with a Google-docs based system, and assuming that you don't need more than 2 or 3 of them, the hardware portion would come out to just over $1,000. The data plan could be the tricky bit, depending on what plan you'd need and the service provider, it could be as little as a few hundred dollars or as much as a few thousand. I haven't had the chance to research 'pay as you go' data plans too much, but if they're reasonable, they could be the best method.

[techhelpbb]

I worry that we are doing ourselves as a social enterprise a disservice by creating barricade between those with money and those without.

A table with access enough to send data out to a specific storage location and down again, a storage location accessible from the Internet, could even be setup next to the field as long as it is not wireless.

We already do provide laptops with many of the updates teams require.

Creating a situation where teams must cover the costs of uploading valuable historic information and are discouraged from leveraging Internet technology seems a bad idea. To frame it a different way: NASA often buffers up data on their space vehicles to be sent when they can actually send it. Giving an opportunity to send the data should be a suitable equivalent issue.

I have to say that the Internet does give students the ability to achieve large incomes with a very low access cost. It seems a bad idea to create a situation that discourages students from learning to leverage that opportunity. The situation I proposed above would force the students to learn how to use the Internet in a way that they will have to learn important and valuable lessons. Personally I'd rather the gap be between those that know and those that do not, than those that have the toys and those that do not. Necessity is the mother of invention and this is supposed to be about opportunity. After all the gap between those that know and those that do not can be solved with education and access to...the Internet.

[yash101]

I'm just wondering, does FRC use WiFi jammers outside the field? This is a little off topic, but a WiFi jammer would keep the field working seamlessly!
Another off topic thing not worth making a thread about: Why is there a 7Mbps WiFi bandwidth cap? Don't they use N routers, with a capacity of 300Mbps? That would mean 75Mbps per robot connection! Even if they used WiFi A or G, they could get ~14Mbps!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yash101

I'm just wondering, does FRC use WiFi jammers outside the field? This is a little off topic, but a WiFi jammer would keep the field working seamlessly!

Not that I know about. The problem with using a WiFi jammer is that it would probably jam the field WiFi as well, which is the LAST thing you want to do! They do use WiFi sniffers to figure out who is running a network and ask them nicely to turn said network off.

Another off topic thing not worth making a thread about: Why is there a 7Mbps WiFi bandwidth cap? Don't they use N routers, with a capacity of 300Mbps? That would mean 75Mbps per robot connection! Even if they used WiFi A or G, they could get ~14Mbps!

Go read the 2012 Einstein Report. The cap wasn't placed until after that event.

[yash101]

I am currently reading it. It's quite interesting! That makes me think about how onboard image processing can be much more reliable than DS image processing! Have they tried a UPS battery built into the bridge and the cRIO to keep them up during voltage drops? I'm pretty sure that a good capacitor should also do the trick!

[cgmv123]

Originally Posted by yash101

Have they tried a UPS battery built into the bridge and the cRIO to keep them up during voltage drops? I'm pretty sure that a good capacitor should also do the trick!

Both the cRIO and bridge have dedicated outputs on the PDB which can regulate down to ~4.5V.

[yash101]

Yes. I agree! However, they can still commonly fail, especially here where the voltage isn't stable!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by yash101

Yes. I agree! However, they can still commonly fail, especially here where the voltage isn't stable!

I'm not sure you understand what he's getting at.

The PDB's dedicated outputs will continue to output the required voltage until the voltage coming in drops below 4.5 V or so. I can't remember hearing of a single failure.

[yash101]

In the Einstein report, it was mentioned that a few teams kept having voltage sags and their robots kept rebooting

[Nirvash]

Originally Posted by yash101

In the Einstein report, it was mentioned that a few teams kept having voltage sags and their robots kept rebooting

If a robot's battery voltage is sagging to the point where the PDB cannot power the Crio, there are massively bigger problems at hand.
Though, if the 12 to 5 volt converter for the radio is wired to the wrong outputs on the PDB, that may cause brownouts for the radio.

[philso]

Originally Posted by techhelpbb

I can see others are offended by this and I can see why (at one time or another I was involved in the fundamental engineering to get here as well).
However, in fairness, he's a kid - he wants to understand - and he just doesn't know.
So instead of being annoyed I am going a different direction:

You have the luxury of seeing today the exact use of the technology and the ramifications of - and I will say this clearly - the misuse of this technology.

I greatly appreciate his enthusiasm, energy and appetite for learning. If he is wanting to understand, it would be best for him to ask questions and apply his obvious enthusiasm and energy towards attempting to follow the advice given.

It is stating the obvious that it is not appropriate for anyone to make pronouncements and recommendations in this forum that cannot be backed up with a solid foundation of knowledge. Quite a few of his suggestions,in this thread and others, could have caused harm or danger to others who might not know better. I can understand why some other forum members are wondering if he is a troll.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by philso

I greatly appreciate his enthusiasm, energy and appetite for learning. If he is wanting to understand, it would be best for him to ask questions and apply his obvious enthusiasm and energy towards attempting to follow the advice given.

It is stating the obvious that it is not appropriate for anyone to make pronouncements and recommendations in this forum that cannot be backed up with a solid foundation of knowledge. Quite a few of his suggestions,in this thread and others, could have caused harm or danger to others who might not know better. I can understand why some other forum members are wondering if he is a troll.

Be sure you are correct before you raise a posse.
Encouraging that sort of thinking doesn't build a growing community.

Also take this tidbit of wisdom from a soldier friend of mine:
"The worst thing you can do is lose the trust of those that are loyal to you"

To your concern about the safety of others: only a fool takes everything they read on the Internet verbatim. After all paradoxically you question him but presume others will blindly follow him.

If this thought he is a troll is wrong - think carefully of the price.