Extruded aluminum custom designed for FRC robots

[Clifcecile]

One of our mentors is Gary Klein, former owner/maker of Klein Bicycles, has developed three sets of extrusions and has contracted with an extrusion tool and die company to make stock lengths of custom shaped extruded aluminum in time for this season's "Build". These extrusions would allow a team to build the drive train and top structures easily with simple drilling and tapping.

We are thinking that this system would be much cheaper and more robust than stock aluminum or the "C" channel from AndyMark.

The three extrusions are a 3 inch, 2 inch and a slider that would enable one to mount hardware easing onto to the 3 or 2 inch bars. I have attached a small pic of the 3 pieces.

If anyone is interested in this, contact us. We propose that we can ship these in any lengths right up to the maximum length allowed by UPS, FEDEX......

Clif White
Head mentor Team 4060 S.W.A.G.
W F West High School.
Chehalis, WA

[Nuttyman54]

Is Klein Bicycles selling the extrusion, or is the team? It's unclear if you're offering to customize the extrusion for any team, or are offering lengths of the extrusion you've developed, but I would caution you to verify that you're meeting all of the requirements of a vendor before offering stock components to teams. You can find the requirements in the Glossary section of the rules from last year.

Obviously, the rules could change this year, but the definition of a legal vendor has remained fairly consistent for many years.

[tim-tim]

I like the concept at hand. I'm surprised we haven't seen more of these group buys of custom extrusions pop up on CD.I will follow up with a PM in a minute, but have a few questions that are probably going to be common.

What are the selling prices? Are you selling by the foot or pound?
When will the pieces be ready for shipment? When should we expect to receive them?
Is this a one time thing, or will it be offered again? How much do you plan on "stocking"
Is there a minimum order requirement?

[mrnoble]

Tell Gary he has at least one hero-worshipper here; I used to race in the 90's and loved, loved, loved his bikes.

It looks like the vendor would be Chehalis Bicycle, Inc.; is this correct? My questions are like the others: price, and how soon can they ship. My team (1339) might be very interested, if the vendor issue can be worked out.

[Clifcecile]

Here is Gary's reply to the question about the Vendor and extrusion prices.

Dear Clif:

I reduced my PO to the minimum amount 2,000 lbs of each shape. The downside is that if this stuff sells, I will need to reorder the frames way before the slide shape. I ordered the material in 24 ft lengths so we have the option of cutting into 4, 6 or 8 or 12ft lengths.

Including the die charge and around a 200% markup, the cost comes to $2 per foot for the slide, $3 per foot for the 2 inch frame, and $4 per foot for the 3 inch frame.

Shipping is going to be the big problem. If someone orders a single 8 foot piece, it will have to be strapped to a wooden backing to keep it from bending in shipment. If it is a multiple piece order, I don’t think the wood is necessary. Shipping will be expensive and is not included in the pricing. The lowest rate I have found without negotiating something is the USPS ground package service. Probably pretty slow. Air freight starts at $100 to ship anything. Trek ships through UPS at much lower rates than what a retail customer pays. I don’t know how to get something better. If someone were to order a bunch, we could make it a truck shipment.

I have been on the fence about who is doing this. It sounds like it needs to be Chehalis Bicycle Inc. It has the all the tax numbers and such to be a Vendor. I will need to hire someone to answer email, cut, pack and ship. Perhaps a student??
I do not have a delivery date yet. Just got the final drawing on the slide to approve. I was hoping for Jan 10th, but I don’t know where we are at.

Obviously we only have the shapes we have made to sell. If someone has a different shape in mind, I would be happy to look at it, but there will be the lead time of a new extrusion to deal with. It will need to have broad usefulness in order to justify making 2,000 lbs.

You may share this email with the group.

Gary

Clif:

I forgot to include weights.

3 inch frame is .607 lbs per foot
2 inch frame is .457 lbs per foot
slider is .269 lbs per foot.

There should be plenty of material in the edges to drill and tap 1/4 x 20 or 6 mm holes from the top or sides. Can also drill and tap from the ends. Material is of course weldable, but I am favoring machined and bolted construction for the robots. Less distortion and easier to modify.

These frames shapes are not super light, but better than trying to work with commonly available rectangle strip.

So if you bolt a slider to each side of a frame with the tab, there should be clearance for the assembly to slide over the same size frame. Or you can just use the light slider on the edge of a frame by itself.

Gary

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If anybody out there have any ideas or suggestions we would appreciate any and all..

[CENTURION]

For some reason I'm having a really hard time visualizing how this stuff would be used. Do you have a CAD model of an example drivetrain or mechanism perhaps?

This is a very exciting opportunity though, I'm actually surprised that nobody has really had a go at this idea before.

[mrnoble]

I think, at around .5-.6 lbs/ft, a 3500 or 4000 foot order will take care of it for a while. I don't think Gary will need to reorder for the 2014 season, though if his product finds success on the field it may be something to consider for next year. That by itself seems to me to qualify it as COTS, as long as the bike company is the vendor.

Still very interested; we might get around 30' of each type. I don't think the date will work for the 2014 build for us, but who knows? I'd be willing to put in an order tomorrow if that would ensure an earlier delivery; otherwise, we will be happy to try it out as soon as it arrives, and perhaps use it in the off-season.

Shipping costs are always crazy, and I've come to expect that as part of the deal with most frame materials.

Thanks again!

[Kevin Ray]

We (FIRST team 329) very much like the idea of new extruded shapes, especially those that are specifically geared toward FRC. In fact, I too cannot believe that it hasn't been thought of earlier. I would be willing to bet that if it takes off in 2014, AndyMark would also pick up some of the product and be a vendor for Klein--but who knows, they've done it before with products created by individual teams who also sell their own products.
I think we'd have to see how we could actually use the extrusions and would we have to spend too much time removing excess material--it does seem a bit on the heavy side as it is now.

[mrnoble]

Any updates on this? Thanks!

[Clifcecile]

Here is some update to the process so far:

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What lengths do you think people want? 30 ft helps, because it will support itself. I still have not figured out the best method and length to ship. Susie says she has released the drawings to the die department to make the dies. I think they EDM them. At least that is how they used to do it.

30 ft of each is 40 lbs total, not a bad shipping weight. I recommend that he purchase more of the 2 and 3 inch frame than the slide. I think we will use the frames for a lot of the structure, and use the slide only for movements. We may only use the slide in short pieces, bolted to frame parts.

I am thinking about asking about an angle as well.

Gary
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And here is the part about the angle
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I have sent the 3 inch angle drawing to SAPA as well. Here is the shape I am floating. I have asked what their time would be.


Gary
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I have attached the drawing of this.

[mrnoble]

Please send me a PM so we can look at starting the purchasing process, assuming Gary wants to go forward with it.

[mplanchard]

You can use this drawing profile to create a custom weldment profile in SolidWorks. Then sketch an outline of your frame in one sketch. Attach the weldment profile and you will get a cutlist with the exact length and cut angles of each member. See the Weldment tutorial in SolidWorks under Help. Marie

[Clifcecile]

The extruding company is delivering the aluminum pieces to Chehalis on the 17th. Gary ordered 2,000 lbs of the 3" and the 2". 1,000 lbs of the slider which is plenty.

That is not optimal but we are still going to use it for our chassis and superstructure.

Freight charges vary considerably depending on the carrier when shipping out pieces.

[Clifcecile]

We are setting up an eBay site that will let teams order these extrusions directly and in a couple of days we hope to have a web site as well.


Clif White
Head mentor Team 4060 S.W.A.G.
W F West High School.
Chehalis, WA