[FRC Blog] Kickoff Broadcast and Game Hint Redux

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by EricH

Speaking of missteps...

--2001 (Diabolical Dynamics) was 4v0, not 2v2.
--Bonus balls were +points for whichever robot(s) got their balls on top of the goals--each robot had its own color. That part was just about right.
--The bridge was distinctly different from coopertition bridges. Namely, it tended to tip to one side or the other, not return to center. Also, you got points for balancing on it.
--And finally... That wasn't "extra points" for the E-stop. That was a multiplier. How big was it? Depended when you stopped all 4 robots, but it was between 1 and 2 if memory serves, with tripping it in 30 seconds or less being the highest multiplier. This particular year is the single reason that the manual clarifies that the use of the E-stop will not affect match score or duration--and has done that every single year since 2002.

That cooperation bridge also had a "flat spot" in the middle. It could be balanced like in 2012. Teams that could manipulate it were useful in the final endgame balance.
It was 2v2 as the color of the large bonus balls determined who got that multiplier.
I was trying to keep the description simple. Bonus multiplier = extra points.
I felt that describing actual scoring metric would have obscured my intent to recall the first instance of co-opertition.

Thank you for the clarification.

[Kevin Ray]

What about three different field pieces; a soccer ball, basketball and a disc (frisbee or puck)? Each team would score it's specialty, relying on the other ally to score a different field piece. Granted most teams will be designing a bot to score at least two, but you would most likely be relying on the "assistance" of your ally. This plays to the GDC's desire to make the game easy for rookies (the games have already been played--thus the robot designs are already there) yet the veteran or more capable teams will be challenged to design a robot which could do all three well.

All three sports represented and "assist" is utilized?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

It was 2v2 as the color of the large bonus balls determined who got that multiplier.

Nope, 4V0. One red, one blue, one green, one yellow. The color determined who got the extra points (not a multiplier for these). One alliance, with some elements to allow up to two teams to do better than the alliance.

And if you wanted the first instance of coopertition...

Try Double Trouble (1999) or Coopertition FIRST (2000). 2001 just happens to be the one described in the patent application for Coopertition.

[MooreteP]

Additionally, 2001, Diabolical Dynamics was an interesting game and the most in the spirit of the idea of co-opertition.
Like Lunacy, it was not the most popular, but I thought it worked on a different level.
When the term co-opertition resurrected in 2012, we winced.

Here is what would happen in 2001:
The four teams involved were given time to conference and plan before their match.
They would plan out a strategy and then each team would do their own thing. It was a big fail for most matches. Selfishness would defeat the common good.

Robots that could balance the goals on the bridge were key, and as a regional progressed, they would gain the respect and upper hand in the pre-match conferences that would lead to co-opertition.
Filling the goals with the small balls and placing the bonus ball on top really increased their moment of inertia, which made the bridge balance even trickier. Many bonus balls fell of the tops of the towers as the bridge teeter-tottered.

Here is some video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-wy3uRL9M0
Here is the highest score in the nation video that I was looking for earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsp2LjfJHsA
You can see a countdown clock for the bonus multiplier. 3x, 2.5x, 2x, 1.5x.

From a game theory standpoint it was fascinating. Team's egos had to be checked at the door for success.

I don't think we will see a return to that aspect this year. But the matches were on schedule with that time bonus multiplier.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by EricH

Nope, 4V0. One red, one blue, one green, one yellow. The color determined who got the extra points (not a multiplier for these). One alliance, with some elements to allow up to two teams to do better than the alliance.

And if you wanted the first instance of coopertition...

Try Double Trouble (1999) or Coopertition FIRST (2000). 2001 just happens to be the one described in the patent application for Coopertition.

I still view it as having a 2v2 aspect in that whoever could get their color bonus ball on top would have a higher score.
Nonetheless, I like the 4v0 from a game theory standpoint, so i will concede the argument to you.

I don't see how 1999 or 2000 (in spite of it's title) used co-opertition.
In regards to the "assist" aspect of the game hint, I am curious how co-opertition will rear its head this year.

[yarden.saa]

The real hint is that you should have check the FIRST website. They didn't announced it as previous years but they publushed the KoP dimensions and weight.
The black tote that every team gets weights 60 pounds (12 pound more than last year).
The andymark drive train is 33" long (3 inch longer than last year).
Another thing:
In the FIRST Choice website they say what is or isn't in the KOP.
this year there will not be: window motors, window motor coupling, window motor connector, soloneid breakout, fans...


Bigger robots, big game pieces/heavy game pieces.

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

...
In the FIRST Choice website they say what is or isn't in the KOP.
this year there will not be: window motors, window motor coupling, window motor connector, soloneid breakout, fans...
.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Just because something is on the FC site doesn't mean it will not be included in the KOP, right?

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

The real hint is that you should have check the FIRST website. They didn't announced it as previous years but they publushed the KoP dimensions and weight.
The black tote that every team gets weights 60 pounds (12 pound more than last year).
The andymark drive train is 33" long (3 inch longer than last year).
Another thing:
In the FIRST Choice website they say what is or isn't in the KOP.
this year there will not be: window motors, window motor coupling, window motor connector, soloneid breakout, fans...


Bigger robots, big game pieces/heavy game pieces.

Happy New Year!

My experience has been that the black tote contains donated items; if it weighs more than last year, my guess would be that means more companies are donating products.

I can't find anything on the FirstChoice website that tells us what is or isn't in the KOP. I think you are mistaken.

[lsbd4]

I believe the numbers reflect the size and dimensions of the object used in game play. Possibly a pool noodle approximately 12 inches long.

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by lsbd4

I believe the numbers reflect the size and dimensions of the object used in game play. Possibly a pool noodle approximately 12 inches long.

The numbers have been solved. Please read some of the earlier posts. They refer to sports figures with record numbers of "assists" in their respective sports.

[yarden.saa]

Originally Posted by rsisk

How did you come to this conclusion?

Just because something is on the FC site doesn't mean it will not be included in the KOP, right?

example is attached

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

if it weighs more than last year, my guess would be that means more companies are donating products.

...or companies are donating more products, or we get a game piece (cinderblock) in each kit!

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

example is attached

I am drawing the conclusion from this that everything in FirstChoice is not in the KOP. This was, I think, part of the assumed purpose of FirstChoice in the first place; that we could choose from a selection of items to augment our team's stock of supplies with things we didn't already have 20 of. It doesn't mean the Denso motors will not be allowed for the 2014 game.

[Pendulum^-1]

Originally Posted by lsbd4

I believe the numbers reflect the size and dimensions of the object used in game play. Possibly a pool noodle approximately 12 inches long.

Here is a link to a single post that explains the numbers quite well:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=147

To get a more complete summary, search this thread for "Gretzky."
Cuts your reading from 320+ posts to about 15.

I suspect that many who have not yet read the 1000+ posts on the multiple Game Hints threads would appreciate it if those with more experience on this subject would kindly guide the late comers to a good summarization post or posts (or a search key), instead of just simply telling people to burn an hour to figure out where the needle in the haystack is located.

Similar to what we frequently do when providing technical details for robots.

[AllenGregoryIV]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I am drawing the conclusion from this that everything in FirstChoice is not in the KOP.

How can you draw that conclusion? Which items are also in the kit of parts are clearly identified on the item pages in FIRST Choice.

Here is an example
http://firstchoicebyandymark.com/en/fc14-090