[FRC Blog] Kickoff Broadcast and Game Hint Redux

[mrnoble]

Originally Posted by AllenGregoryIV

How can you draw that conclusion? Which items are also in the kit of parts are clearly identified on the item pages in FIRST Choice.

Here is an example
http://firstchoicebyandymark.com/en/fc14-090

I am drawing the conclusion that I need to wake up more before I begin posting on Chief Delphi, especially on New Year's Day.

My apologies for being less than helpful this morning.

You are correct; the FirstChoice website clearly does say that some items are going to be in the KOP, either the black or green tote, while many items will not be in either tote.

What I meant to express is, I don't think the listings on FirstChoice tell us much one way or another about the game at this point. Many of the items on FirstChoice were once included in the KOP. The idea behind FirstChoice, as I have always understood it, is to give us the option of restocking the things we use, or adding things we would like to have in stock, while avoiding adding more things we already have more than enough of. The fact that Denso motors will not be in either tote doesn't tell me that they won't be useful, or that they will be.

Thanks for putting up with me. Happy New Year!

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I am drawing the conclusion that I need to wake up more before I begin posting on Chief Delphi, especially on New Year's Day.

My apologies for being less than helpful this morning.

You are correct; the FirstChoice website clearly does say that some items are going to be in the KOP, either the black or green tote, while many items will not be in either tote.

What I meant to express is, I don't think the listings on FirstChoice tell us much one way or another about the game at this point. Many of the items on FirstChoice were once included in the KOP. The idea behind FirstChoice, as I have always understood it, is to give us the option of restocking the things we use, or adding things we would like to have in stock, while avoiding adding more things we already have more than enough of. The fact that Denso motors will not be in either tote doesn't tell me that they won't be useful, or that they will be.

Thanks for putting up with me. Happy New Year!

A lot of stuff in FIRST choice is just excess inventory of AndyMark's/other companies donating. Such as the IR Transmitter from 2008 that's been in FIRST Choice the last two years; nothing's happened with it.

[Schnabel]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

or we get a game piece (cinderblock) in each kit!

I knew it!

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

...or we get a game piece (cinderblock) in each kit!

or a couple gallons of water.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

or a couple gallons of water.

As a reminder to keep hydrated and remain healthy through build season, right?

[Jay Burnett]

So.... after a couple days and 300 something posts, i think we can draw some conclusions here.

-Hockey game: probably with a roller hockey ball.
-The rebirth of copertition: reference to assists

well done.... well done...
(And yes; I did read the whole thread )

[Qbot2640]

And now that I've read the entire thread, I feel qualified to contribute my opinions:

(1) As a huge hockey fan, no-one would be more happy to see a hockey-based game than me - but I don't feel it this year: I predict a departure from overt "sports related" themes this year...hockey was only one of three sports referenced in the hint (and I believe the hint's representation would be more evenly based)...and I cringe to think of the slapshot speeds some of the teams would achieve, and the associated safety concerns. The real focus of the hint is "assists". Also note, there was a First Choice "Hat Trick" comment, but also a "Home Run / Grand Slam" comment...did anyone pick up a similar soccer related comment?

I feel obliged to point out that one poster identified Wayne Gretzky as "the greatest hockey player of all time" - and while he does hold most of the leagues offensive records, Mario Lemieux (the actual greatest player of all time) would have exceeded all of these records if he would have had anywhere near the lineup that Gretzky enjoyed for most of his career...but I digress

(2) Given the idea of "assisting" many posters have jumped to "coopertition". Assists, in the three contexts presented, are "intra-team" where coopertition (in the 2012 application at least) was "inter-alliance". I would predict some amplification of points where multiple robots on the same alliance sequentially possess the game piece.

(2b) I agree that keeping track of passes would be difficult, so what if it is done automatically...some type of team specific sensor, or perhaps each team passes it's "team specific" game piece to another allowing two or three game pieces to be scored simultaneously (a "pass" being represented by an "accumulation".

Just my 2 cents (except the factual Lemieux part).

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by Qbot2640

And now that I've read the entire thread, I feel qualified to contribute my opinions:

(2) Given the idea of "assisting" many posters have jumped to "coopertition". Assists, in the three contexts presented, are "intra-team" where coopertition (in the 2012 application at least) was "inter-alliance". I would predict some amplification of points where multiple robots on the same alliance sequentially possess the game piece.

(2b) I agree that keeping track of passes would be difficult, so what if it is done automatically...some type of team specific sensor, or perhaps each team passes it's "team specific" game piece to another allowing two or three game pieces to be scored simultaneously (a "pass" being represented by an "accumulation".

Just my 2 cents (except the factual Lemieux part).

I think you may have the co-opertition idea down for this year, it may be between teams on an alliance and may involve an assist to score.

If the assist using a game piece is to be obvious, then a larger than usual game piece may be involved for visual confirmation. Or there will be electronic tracking as you suggest.

Electronic tracking with real time scoring could become a nightmare. Reference the faulty load cells in the goals and the manual counting that was resorted to last year.

They could also restrict robots to "zones" and/or require assists across a "blue line".

Or maybe there will be robots lifting each other like in Rebound Rumble, or lifting (assisting) them up to a high platform to score.

Whatever the game, hopefully it will encourage diverse solutions to the "problem".

BTW, Sidney Crosby will challenge for the greatest and this year's Winter Classic is awesome. $0.02

[bhrobot]

Perhaps instead of visual tracking, maybe there are vertical hoops with a sensor to track passes between teams and only the passes between these hoops will count. Just an idea.

[rakar]

Just getting in on the wild guess lottery before Saturday...

So it looks like Hockey on a three sectioned field like Breakaway so that teams can cross the zones but not easily. Maybe the barricades would be small for a robot but big for a game piece.

There might also be a gap in the middle of each barrier, like Breakaway, but, in addition, to emphasize the assist idea and keep everyone in the game at all times, there might be a lane down each side of the field (one for red, one for blue) where a puck could be fired down field (maybe the entire length.) If the shot is good - the puck travels long and straight - a robot of the correct color could get the puck and shoot it in. Otherwise it might hit the wall or a barricade and bounce out of the lane for anyone to get. Previous rules about opposing robots entering these lanes might exist - they might be exclusion zones or robots might only be restricted from contacting the "owning" alliance's robots in it.

I think the game piece might be carpet pucks instead of balls so that a good robot could shoot the length of the field and leave the puck in the lane. Of course balls would prevent a possible "build up" problem.

As with Breakaway there might also be very specific limits on how a puck could be struck, carried, controlled or thrown.

This is more fun than PowerBall (only because I know I won't win that either!)

[Squillo]

Originally Posted by Abhishek R

Don't trust Wikipedia. Some guy thought it would be funny to mess the page up, the game is not "Step Up."

I just have to respond to this without (I admit! mea culpa!) reading the subsequent posts. But has anyone considered that the GDC might have a <gasp> leak? That this "FakeGDC" might actually have some accurate information, and taking down the edit was just "damage control"?

I mean, there was that apparent/possible staircase.

And I have another idea that also fits into the "assists" angle, which I will not post until I have read ALL the posts. So, I'm going back to it...

[dellagd]

Originally Posted by Qbot2640

(2) Given the idea of "assisting" many posters have jumped to "coopertition". Assists, in the three contexts presented, are "intra-team" where coopertition (in the 2012 application at least) was "inter-alliance". I would predict some amplification of points where multiple robots on the same alliance sequentially possess the game piece.

Hmm. Never thought of it like that, but you're right. That being said, having to rely on my randomly selected alliance partners in the qualifiers for this scares me greatly.

[Squillo]

OK, now I *have* read all the posts (in this thread, anyway). So here's my two cents.

A fellow team member pointed out that there are some interesting new items being sold by AndyMark this year, including a plethora of smaller-sized wheels and some kind of lazy-susan turntable thing that can support up to 300 lbs. That got us thinking that maybe there will be a reason for robots to be smaller or lower (the wheels) and maybe one of those reasons would be that it could be more easily lifted/supported by another robot (hence the need to bear >100 lbs.).

To me, this fits in with the "assist" angle, as in one robot "assisting" another to do something by lifting it up to do it. There might be choices to be made, such as to design your robot to be a "lifter" or a "liftee"; assisting/coopertition (robots on the same alliance OR on different alliances could lift each other), and possibly climbing something (a staircase?). Also, a staircase would be something "impressive". I would think this would probably be an end-game thing, based on recent years - they tend to be trending toward an autonomous that is similar to teleop (hanging tubes, shooting balls/frisbees), a teleop that involves repetitive scoring possibilities, and an endgame that involves lifting or balancing something, a challenge different from the main scoring paradigm (lifting a minibot, lifting/balancing robots on the bridge, lifting robots up the pyramid - wasn't there some kind of hanging thing in 2010 too? I forget...)

The assisting could come into the scoring (maybe the only way to score in a high goal would be for two robots to cooperate?) or the endgame lifting/balancing phase, or both.

3 days to go!

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Squillo

OK, now I *have* read all the posts (in this thread, anyway). So here's my two cents.

A fellow team member pointed out that there are some interesting new items being sold by AndyMark this year, including a plethora of smaller-sized wheels and some kind of lazy-susan turntable thing that can support up to 300 lbs. That got us thinking that maybe there will be a reason for robots to be smaller or lower (the wheels) and maybe one of those reasons would be that it could be more easily lifted/supported by another robot (hence the need to bear >100 lbs.).

The smaller wheels are mainly Andymark expanding/adding FTC products. And the turntables are just leftover from FIRST Choice and/or them expanding into a larger variety of products.

FWIW, the odds that the folks at Andymark have significant knowledge of the game are incredibly slim*


*If something is required of the kitbot, I'm sure they know it, ie. 2013 having a smaller frame, 2010 having that lift kit add-on

[skimoose]

The 12 pound difference in the black tote is interesting. As previously mentioned, it could just reflect new donors products in the KOP. Since the black tote has been slowly dwindling in the past few years, some added items would be appreciated.

As far as the 3 inch difference in the AndyMark KOP drive box, bigger robots is inconclusive. It more likely indicates a "new" or different design for the KOP drive base and thus different packaging. The frame may be designed to allow for flexibility (different lengths/widths) within the frame perimeter rule. I think the 2013 perimeter rule is here to stay.

Bigger game pieces is always a possibility. We haven't had a large exercise ball for several years now and with the smaller perimeter rule that would present some challenges. I still think the trend will continue and it will be a ball game. Doubler balls similar to 2004 FIRST Frenzy haven't been seen lately. Come to think of it, neither have truly mobile goals (the trailers in Lunacy were still tethered to a robot), which would be perfect for a capping doubler bonus ball.

Heavy game pieces is not very likely. Safety is high on the GDC's list of game specifications. A heavy game piece that has to be lifted could be a safety issue. The Tetras from Triple Play is a perfect example. They weighed several pounds each, and this weight lifted by robots had an impact on their CG causing several to tip over, occasionally partially out of the field, a hazard to all near the field. Also, dropping tetras while attempting to score caused them to occasionally fall outside the field. Our human player took a falling tetra in the thigh while returning from loading the robot. She wasn't hurt badly, just a big bruise, but FIRST hasn't used anything similarly heavy or hard since Triple Play.

Also, while Frank clearly said that the Dr. Who reference in the Redux clue wasn't a clue, that is the second reference to Dr. Who by Frank this preseason. He may be a big fan, many of us are, but two references isn't a coincidence. What is the real fascination with the Time Lords?

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

The real hint is that you should have check the FIRST website. They didn't announced it as previous years but they publushed the KoP dimensions and weight.
The black tote that every team gets weights 60 pounds (12 pound more than last year).
The andymark drive train is 33" long (3 inch longer than last year).
Another thing:
In the FIRST Choice website they say what is or isn't in the KOP.
this year there will not be: window motors, window motor coupling, window motor connector, soloneid breakout, fans...


Bigger robots, big game pieces/heavy game pieces.