Is Defense Finally Viable

[ENeyman]

With only one game piece per alliance, is defense a viable strategy this year?

Will the time spent by the opposing alliance trying to score around a defensive bot outweigh the loss of an offensive bot?

I'm just interested what the CD community thinks.

[MasterEric]

It may be the opposite; defense could become quite hard considering how ugly the rules about possession of a ball are.

Specifically, it can be hard to ensure a given bounce is a deflection and not a launch, or a deflection and not herding. See G12 of the rules for more details about this.

Spoiler for G12 of the Game Manual:

G12 An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION :
A) “carrying” (moving while supporting BALLS in or on the ROBOT),
B) “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping),
C) “launching” (impelling BALLS to a desired location or direction), and
D) “trapping” (overt isolation or holding one or more BALLS against a FIELD element or ROBOT in an attempt to shield them).
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL per instance.

Examples of BALL interaction that are not POSSESSION are
A. “bulldozing” (inadvertently coming in contact with BALLS that happen to be in the path of the ROBOT as it moves about the FIELD) and
B. “deflecting” (being hit by a propelled BALL that bounces or rolls off the ROBOT).
A BALL that becomes unintentionally lodged on a ROBOT will be considered POSSESSED by the ROBOT. It is important to design your ROBOT so that it is impossible to inadvertently or intentionally POSSESS an opponent’s BALL.

[ENeyman]

That's a very good point. Do you think that being hit by the ball while intentionally blocking the low goal counts as intentionally touching the opponent's ball? Would a team get penalized for that?

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by ENeyman

That's a very good point. Do you think that being hit by the ball while intentionally blocking the low goal counts as intentionally touching the opponent's ball? Would a team get penalized for that?

You are allowed to intentionally touch an opponents ball, just not POSSESS am opponents ball. Thus blocking the low goal is legal, and may be very effective.

I believe that defense this year could very well be powerful, if done right.

[MasterEric]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

You are allowed to intentionally touch an opponents ball, just not POSSESS am opponents ball. Thus blocking the low goal is legal, and may be very effective.

I believe that defense this year could very well be powerful, if done right.

To clarify, referencing G12:
If you are blocking and the ball hits you, it qualifies as deflecting, and thus not possession.
Repeated hitting of the ball counts as herding though, which is possession.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by ENeyman

That's a very good point. Do you think that being hit by the ball while intentionally blocking the low goal counts as intentionally touching the opponent's ball? Would a team get penalized for that?

Umm... no. That's not what "intentional" means.

[Coin3]

With the limitation imposed by Rule R3-D I suppose it will be a matter of the defensive driver's skill versus the effectiveness/speed of the offensive robot's launcher. The only way for the goalie to defend is to quickly strafe to the position that the ball is being launched to in order to stop the ball with it's puny little 6 Dia. inch extension. If the defending robot is quite fast and has a skilled driver, then I'd say they'll have a good chance.

That said, there is still a lot of room in the high goals for the offense to aim at. I think the best way to counteract a good defense is to have a robot that can turn very quickly and then adjust the power of the launcher to account for the different angle.

I think that defense is definitely viable, and more teams should go for it this year. If we had a defensive robot on every alliance, it would make for much more exciting matches than the assembly line business that going for high points would bring.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Coin3

<SNIP>

That said, there is still a lot of room in the high goals for the offense to aim at. I think the best way to counteract a good defense is to have a robot that can turn very quickly and then adjust the power of the launcher to account for the different angle.

I think that defense is definitely viable, and more teams should go for it this year. If we had a defensive robot on every alliance, it would make for much more exciting matches than the assembly line business that going for high points would bring.

Consider a 5' tall defender up pushing against a high goal shooter. Unless the ball comes out of the shooting robot at 5'+ it can be blocked by the defender.

A quick aggressive defender with a powerful drivetrain can block all but the tallest shooters.

Just another strategy.

also consider a pass advancing robot where a defender pushes up against it such that the pass advancing robot cannot get the ball out of their own robot ...

Defense will be played this year, and (by some) will be played very effectively.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'm thinking defending the top goal is pointless. There's too much area, for too small a blocker. Add to that the rarity of top goal scorers anyways, and you're designing yourself into a pretty small niche.

Best defense is probably locking down the opponent's weakest robot to limit the maximum assists available to them. And really, what else are you going to be doing while you're off the ball? You're either running interference, or you're defending. Defense capability is almost mandatory this year, because you're going to be spending some amount of time not scoring if you're doing the assistance dance. On the other hand, defense only with zero ball handling ability seems like a pretty serious deficit. You're seriously limiting your alliance's scoring ability and flexibility.

[E Dawg]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Add to that the rarity of top goal scorers anyways, and you're designing yourself into a pretty small niche.

True, but you might as well design for the top goal anyways. That way you can block the bottom ones as well if you need to.

[Coin3]

Kevin & E Dawg both made good points. Now it looks like the best way to avoid a defensive rammer is to design your ball launcher/passer to launch out of the top so that the ball doesn't get trapped in your robot.

There are probably more ways to defend effectively; it will be sweet to see what teams comes up with.

[wireties]

"G25 ROBOTS on the same ALLIANCE may not blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This
rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-ROBOT interaction.
"

So is blocking passes (rather than pinning the passer) a viable defense... a hot topic in our group this afternoon?

[Coin3]

Originally Posted by wireties

"G25 ROBOTS on the same ALLIANCE may not blockade the FIELD in an attempt to stop the flow of the MATCH. This
rule has no effect on individual ROBOT-ROBOT interaction.
"

So is blocking passes (rather than pinning the passer) a viable defense... a hot topic in our group this afternoon?

My interpretation of that rule is the image of all 3 alliance robots sitting in a row blocking the middle of the field from being passed. The rule is only meant to put a hard restriction on that "strategy." So pinning a passer while they're trying to pass wouldn't be breaking a rule; just don't pin them for more than 5 seconds.

[BW1AN]

Are defending robots allowed to hit the opposing alliance's ball without gaining possession?

Rule G12 prohibits a robot from having possession of an opponent's ball. Does one hit count as herding, and therefore possession?

What if a red robot hits a ball possessed by a blue alliance robot?

[MasterEric]

Originally Posted by BW1AN

Are defending robots allowed to hit the opposing alliance's ball without gaining possession?

Rule G12 prohibits a robot from having possession of an opponent's ball. Does one hit count as herding, and therefore possession?

What if a red robot hits a ball possessed by a blue alliance robot?

Herding is repeated hitting; however, launching appears to be simply hitting the ball. So if a red bot hits a ball possessed by a blue alliance bot, it counts as launching.

Deflecting is when the ball hits a bot; herding/launching is when a bot hits the ball. Basically, if the bot did it on purpose, it's possession.

Does this mean that you cannot touch the ball while defending, besides when they fire it at you? This could make defending hard.