Is Defense Finally Viable

[BW1AN]

Originally Posted by MasterEric

Does this mean that you cannot touch the ball while defending, besides when they fire it at you? This could make defending hard.

This is exactly what I was trying to figure out.

I can't imagine possession would be granted simply for hitting the ball though. That would make assists much more easy.

[sgtdole]

I don't think Defense is going to be as easily effective as last year's game.

[BW1AN]

Originally Posted by sgtdole

I don't think Defense is going to be as easily effective as last year's game.

Why do you say that?

[iVanDuzer]

Originally Posted by BW1AN

Are defending robots allowed to hit the opposing alliance's ball without gaining possession?

Rule G12 prohibits a robot from having possession of an opponent's ball. Does one hit count as herding, and therefore possession?

What if a red robot hits a ball possessed by a blue alliance robot?

G12
An ALLIANCE may not POSSESS their opponent’s BALLS. The following criteria define POSSESSION :...
• “herding” (repeated pushing or bumping)....

(emphasis mine) In order to herd, you would have to show continued effort to influence the direction of the ball. Just running past it and bumping it (as long as you're going somewhere) is 100% legal ("bulldozing").

In your second example, it would depend on how the opponent is possessing the ball. If the ball is somehow held inside the frame perimeter, possession should be the least of your worries:

G28
Deliberate or damaging contact with an opponent ROBOT on or inside its FRAME PERIMETER is not allowed.
Violation: TECHNICAL FOUL

If you're defending against a robot who's method of possession is herding, possibly with an extended mechanism, then the G28 Blue Box comes into effect:

High speed accidental collisions may occur during the MATCH and are expected. ROBOTS extend elements outside of the FRAME PERIMETER at their own risk; no penalties will be assigned for contact between two such extended elements.

So you can hit their mechanism (without an intent to damage) unpenalized. And as long as you aren't trying to gain possession of their ball, you shouldn't be penalized either. I think that would be considered bulldozing as well, AS LONG AS YOU'RE PLAYING THE BOT AND NOT THE BALL.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by E Dawg

True, but you might as well design for the top goal anyways. That way you can block the bottom ones as well if you need to.

You're assuming top goal defense is as easy as defense was last year. You need to design a mechanism that's going to extend 3'-4' out the top of your robot, linearly, not swinging around a pivot, that can withstand (presumably) multiple exercise balls hitting it at speed. Or you can spend you time designing a floor pickup, launcher, dump, etc. I think top goal defense is going to be too unimportant to top-rank offense/defense robots, and too challenging for most lower-ranked defense-only teams. I think I'd really rather that lower rank teams focus on a ball manipulation system than a defense system that's going to be useless 95% of the time.

[theCADguy]

I think defense will actually be extremely effective this year. Keep in mind that there is going to only be one game piece for each alliance. This means that only one robot with a drive train that is fast and has decent acceleration will be able to follow their opponents' progress as they cross the field. They would be able to block robots from passing toward the goals, as well as blocking them from passing a ball over the truss and catching it. Also, a tall robot would also be able to park directly in front of a opponent that is attempting to score in either set of goals.(Just how one could defend against a full court shooter in Ultimate Ascent.)This defensive strategy could be effective with only one defender, which allows the rest of the alliance the ability to keep on scoring. Robots do not have to be in the goalie zone to block a shot. In fact, there is no area on the field that a robot can't be defended against.

[MikeE]

No protected zones => defense is viable

At its core this is a game of optimizing cycle time vs points scored by multiple assists.
With a good drive train and judicious use of those 6 CIMS it's going to be very worthwhile to add 15+ seconds to an opponent's cycle time and/or limit them to 2 assists.

[Lil' Lavery]

"Finally viable?" When was defense not viable? 2008 is basically the only time that happened. Even in 2012 there was still plenty of ball-oriented defense (and not to mention the triple balance defense nightmares).

But defense will be important this year.

[yash101]

I would say, yes, only to a certain extent! What would be a game like to see all robots build for defense? While that could get you a little crack, the game will quickly become boring!

Dear teams,

IMHO, while your limiting your opponents scoring by running defense, you are also limiting your alliance's scoring by not assisting. So there is no net gain to defense unless there are special circumstances such as a terrific autonomous mode where one alliance has a huge lead in points. and then just runs defense with two robots essentially shutting down the their opponents. This seems pretty petty and mean spirited, and not the gracious thing to do.

I hope people don't play this way. I think the most fun way to play this game is total offense. Figure out a way that your robot can maximize the scoring of your alliance no matter who your partners are. If you have two rookies on your side who can only pass balls, go for 31/40 points each cycle and try to get 4 cycles.

To rookies, build a RELIABLE base that can work every time and assist by passing the ball. Build your robot early and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
If you have trouble building your robot have your drivers practice with RC cars. Your first regional is not a good time to try to learn to drive.

If history repeats itself, I am guessing that defense will not be very important in qualifiers, but may be extremely important in finals. Because there are four alliance partners; one may well be a defense specialist that matches up well against an effective high scorer. Designing such a robot is risky, because it won't stand out in early rounds and have trouble getting picked. Being a defense specialist worked out well for Team 25 in 2000. They were so low in qualifying points that no one considered them for the third pick (This was a two on two game but the third robot was part of the alliance and you could play them at any time.) Since no one had scouted them their defensive strategy cleaned up and they were part of the National Championship alliance.

My final admission, I don't know how to build an effective defensive robot. Say I want to run defense against a highly effective high goal scorer like a fictional team called the 'Holy Doritos.' They have a machine that is maneuverable and fast can traverse the field in ten seconds and score, the turn very effectively and can automatically adjust their balls trajectory by use of an autonomous optical ranging system. So the can turn and shoot from any part of their scoring zone with 80% success.

How can I build a robot to defend against that? Even If I could it would at best slow them up and best case possible lower their efficiency 20 to 25%.
So they end up scoring 300 instead of 400, and meanwhile my alliance has scored 150.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

"Finally viable?" When was defense not viable? 2008 is basically the only time that happened. Even in 2012 there was still plenty of ball-oriented defense (and not to mention the triple balance defense nightmares).

But defense will be important this year.

Defense was also pretty rough in 2011, once human players figured out how to throw tubes to their robots.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by bduddy

Defense was also pretty rough in 2011, once human players figured out how to throw tubes to their robots.

Yup. Meaningful defense was near impossible once human players figured that out

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Dr.Bot

IMHO, while your limiting your opponents scoring by running defense, you are also limiting your alliance's scoring by not assisting. So there is no net gain to defense unless there are special circumstances such as a terrific autonomous mode where one alliance has a huge lead in points. and then just runs defense with two robots essentially shutting down the their opponents. This seems pretty petty and mean spirited, and not the gracious thing to do.

I'm not one to advocate applying GP notation to [legal] match strategies, but the first sentence of this itself seems to miss a logical way to play zones this year. With a 3- (or 2-) pass zone layout for assisting, you will inherently have time in which you are not playing offense. One of the most logical options during that interim is to play defense. It doesn't--nor has it ever been--necessary to have defense as your sole occupation in order for it to be "viable".

Originally Posted by Dr.Bot

If history repeats itself, I am guessing that defense will not be very important in qualifiers, but may be extremely important in finals. Because there are four alliance partners; one may well be a defense specialist that matches up well against an effective high scorer. Designing such a robot is risky..[read this too]

Just a note, there are only 4 alliance partners at Worlds Elims, and even then you're only playing 3 at a time. Also, a note to rookies, the importance of defense in quals is highly (no, highly) dependent on your event/geographic region.

[mitchklong]

Agree if each bot is working one zone then 2/3rds of the time you are doing nothing, so why not play defense ?

One simple strategy would be to get between the other 2 bots so they cant pass to each other.

Or get between the bot in your zone and the ball. They have to go around. If the ball rolls out of that zone they have to push it back into the zone or forgo the assist.

[yash101]

Originally Posted by Dr.Bot

Dear teams,

IMHO, while your limiting your opponents scoring by running defense, you are also limiting your alliance's scoring by not assisting. So there is no net gain to defense unless there are special circumstances such as a terrific autonomous mode where one alliance has a huge lead in points. and then just runs defense with two robots essentially shutting down the their opponents. This seems pretty petty and mean spirited, and not the gracious thing to do.

I hope people don't play this way. I think the most fun way to play this game is total offense. Figure out a way that your robot can maximize the scoring of your alliance no matter who your partners are. If you have two rookies on your side who can only pass balls, go for 31/40 points each cycle and try to get 4 cycles.

To rookies, build a RELIABLE base that can work every time and assist by passing the ball. Build your robot early and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
If you have trouble building your robot have your drivers practice with RC cars. Your first regional is not a good time to try to learn to drive.

If history repeats itself, I am guessing that defense will not be very important in qualifiers, but may be extremely important in finals. Because there are four alliance partners; one may well be a defense specialist that matches up well against an effective high scorer. Designing such a robot is risky, because it won't stand out in early rounds and have trouble getting picked. Being a defense specialist worked out well for Team 25 in 2000. They were so low in qualifying points that no one considered them for the third pick (This was a two on two game but the third robot was part of the alliance and you could play them at any time.) Since no one had scouted them their defensive strategy cleaned up and they were part of the National Championship alliance.

My final admission, I don't know how to build an effective defensive robot. Say I want to run defense against a highly effective high goal scorer like a fictional team called the 'Holy Doritos.' They have a machine that is maneuverable and fast can traverse the field in ten seconds and score, the turn very effectively and can automatically adjust their balls trajectory by use of an autonomous optical ranging system. So the can turn and shoot from any part of their scoring zone with 80% success.

How can I build a robot to defend against that? Even If I could it would at best slow them up and best case possible lower their efficiency 20 to 25%.
So they end up scoring 300 instead of 400, and meanwhile my alliance has scored 150.

I bet 987 could beat that

Have an ultrafast drivetrain with shifters. Build the bot to 5 ft as something blocking (lightweight so all the weight is at the bottom. Then have 2 rods that extend higher up to block the high shots! Make sure they are collapsible so you can get under the truss!